In this episode, host Joe White sits down with executive producer and history professor Dr. Joe Venosa for a comprehensive analysis of Question A, the November ballot referendum to change Wicomico County's government from a County Executive to a Council-Manager system. Dr. Venosa makes the case for the change, framing it as a critical, non-partisan issue of good governance—noting that four of the five Republican council members voted to put the measure on the ballot. He argues the current executive system concentrates power, lacks transparency (citing 41 MOUs), is susceptible to donor influence, and has created a toxic work environment, citing a recent audit. Venosa also debunks the executive's "results" on projects like the airport expansion and mechanic's school, presenting them as long-term council initiatives. The episode concludes with a full replay of Dr. Venosa's public presentation on Question A, where he uses a "driving the wrong way" metaphor to explain the system's flaws and details its negative impact on education funding and employee morale.
Open Agenda Episode 17 Dr Joe Venosa Presentation
Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
you're watching open Agenda here's our
host Joe White welcome to open Agenda
I'm your host Joe White in this episode
we're going to take a look back and
really make sure everyone understands
really what is question a why are we
spent so much time talking about it in
studio with me is Joe venos our
executive director how you doing Joe I'm
well my friend how are you I'm great so
I think people at home are probably
wondering why we've switched sides right
what's going on here the main point is
this is not about what's left or right
right no it's about what's right or
wrong I think one of the hardest things
to hear uh from the other side that is
has has used so many different tactics
to get people to be scared to get uh to
remove the executive form of government
is that they're making this some sort of
national political issue and I'm hoping
you and I can spend some time today
taking a look back uh talking about how
this is not a partisan tactic at all
from either side this is just good for
local politics right yep absolutely so
Joe I want to ask you so Joe you're
you're a professor at Salsbury
University uh history correct yes sir
and I want you to take some time to
really talk about what is question a the
the charter amendment that we're going
to vote for or or against in November
what is it well essentially it's a
decision it's a decision about do we
continue with the system that we have
right where we have a county executive
that has an inordinate amount of
inordinate excuse me amount of power and
concentrated Authority or do we go to a
system that we have had before in this
County's history for much of it 140
years as well as a system that most of
the country uses which is a council
Matic form of a government in which
power is not concentrated in one
person's hands but seven and a council
then has to use a consensus for the
day-to-day running of County Government
but Joe I've heard people from the other
side state that if you take away the
executive that you're taking away their
voice on deciding who's running the
county why is
that explain that why why is it not true
well it's not true for a lot of reasons
but you know that argument is sometimes
tied into this other talking point you
you'll hear people say obviously you're
taking away the people's voice and
they'll also say you're taking away
checks and balances the problem with
that whole argument is this we don't
really actually have a check and balance
system right now we fundamentally have
two separate governments operating at
the same time because essentially the
executive runs aspects of government in
a way that has no transparency no public
oversight no ability to uh regulate or
contain abuse no ability for broader
members of the wo government or of the
public to have any sense of what's going
on but in this in the executive form of
government do we not have a a County
Administrator you have an executive who
also has a County Administrator a Deputy
Administrator and various staff that are
all doing different things which
ironically if you look at it in terms of
a council Matic form of government you
would have a much more efficient group
group of people doing those things
rather than a bloated bureaucracy where
one person can kind of determine a
selected team to do different things
based on what they want but don't you in
a catic form of government you have a
County Administrator there as well you
you do but you have an administrator
that has to have some professional
qualifications and is vetted by a group
of people that we elect okay so in a
sense what you're getting is the ability
to have a professional manager okay who
can be hired or fired with a majority
vote in public with oversight are you
saying that in either form of government
you have a County Administrator but with
an executive form you have one person
who chooses that person but in a counil
Matic form of government you actually
have seven people that have to come to
consensus to to hire this person indeed
and that's actually the core point that
I was that I would emphasize and this
kind of goes back to your point about it
not being a left right thing fun
fundamentally when you have people that
have to agree on something as a group
right a consensus this is true whether I
teach a class and we're trying to do
like a group project or whether you're
with people in in the workplace you're
trying to make a decision when people
have to come together for a common
purpose it tends to help lower and
mitigate the extremes so as much as
folks who like myself I mean I'm a
conservative I'm a
republican who might be concerned that
hey if we move back to a council Matic
form of government that we might have
some sort of liberal wave so to speak it
could go the other direction as well I
mean you could have uh someone with an
executive form who has a very liberal uh
agenda who now is no longer forced to
operate in a transparent form taking out
the voice of every conservative in the
county correct correct and this goes
back to the point that because this
executive position is inherently
political it's it's just ripe for that
kind of partisan abuse and the reality
is and I think we all would agree on
this you know there's no Republican or
Democrat way to PVE a road or to deal
with an infrastructure crisis or to sort
of make sure First Responders are
operating you know in terms of
day-to-day operations the basics of
everyday government have very little to
do with partisanship the problem
is the executive form of government
automatically puts a singular
ideological control system over over
those things what role do donors have
when you have a single person versus say
a council Matic form of government and
it's spread out over seven folks sure
well this is the other side of that
right is that for all the rhetoric on
the other side of this argument about
keeping the executive and the people who
say we need checks and balances right
now all we have is checks and I mean
campaign checks because the fundamental
danger with influence regarding a county
executive system is this if I'm a
special interest donor and I want for
example maybe to get a liquor license or
I want to get an access you know I want
access to use County property for an
event um I can go to one person I could
sign a check and give a campaign
donation or I could be friends with that
person and I could have undo influence
in a way that I can't with a council
because the council has to operate in
public with meetings to actually go over
contracts and and sign various sort of
Agreements are you saying that it's
unlikely non-transparent things like
anou written with livewired media who
happens to be longtime friends with our
current executive or even anou sign with
Eastern Shore undercover who happened to
be a campaign donor would would have
some sort of um would have less impact
on on having seven folks they they' have
to they'd have to somehow pay off or
sway four of the seven right um and to
put it in context you know the citizens
may not actually really know the extent
of those agreements because our current
executive um told I believe it was Mike
Bradley a local radio host uh just in an
interview the other day that she has
signed 41 Us in the duration now how
many citizens out there how many of us
know that we have no way of finding that
out publicly she happened to admit it
off the cuff in an interview but that's
the reality that we're dealing with we
don't know what's going on with our tax
dollars and our influence uh in terms of
um you know who is actually calling the
shots because so much of this is
happening in the dark so one other
question that's come up several times is
what happens to the current
employees uh in the county if we do
elect to move away from a county or
executive form of government uh
specifically you know the the longtime
employees does anything happen to them
no and in fact what actually was stated
at a recent form that they had on the
executive even though I don't
necessarily think that form was
particularly fully informed mative U but
one thing that was mentioned by both a
county executive on the panel and other
elected officials uh and by Weston young
who is the current uh County Manager in
Worster um was that the day-to-day
operations of employees uh aspects of of
of job security are in no way impacted
um you could make the argument however
that because in our current system in W
Comico County the executive could at any
point arbitrarily hire or fire certain
people um that employee risk and
employee concerns are now in this
current system much more uh in danger I
think that was pretty evident by the uh
the County Auditors employee employment
report that stated High turnover high
high chances of bullying and and and
even just people who've witnessed it
well the stats were 25% of current
employees and these people who were
comfortable enough to answer that survey
said that they had been bullied or
harassed directly and that a third 33%
had witnessed it now if that were any
other business if that were any other if
that happened at a university it would
be an absolute Scandal exactly well we
we're talking about the local interest
groups and and some of the the points
there but when we come back I want to
talk a little bit about how the national
politics have or have no impact on this
specifically by some the counterpoints
that our current executive and her
campaign have made to vote against
question a great stick with us when we
come back we're going to take a look at
some of the counterpoints made by those
who want who want to vote against
question a and why we don't feel like
they actually have very much Merit in
this County stick with us we'll be right
back welcome back to open Agenda I'm
your host Joe White Joe venos is still
in the studio with us Joe I want to take
some time to really focus on some of the
counterpoints that Julie gano's campaign
who by the way is funding all of the
against question a uh uh election U
stuff that's come out correct I mean
that's what we've seen anyway at least
the parts that have authority lines um
yes what role if any does National
politics play in question a here in wo
County National politics has as much
relevance to question a as the price of
avocados in Mexico does okay meaning
nothing nothing okay this is not about
National politics it's not about even
local political parties this is a
philosophical question and it's a
question about at its core the basics of
his local government delivering for the
citizens I think one of the interesting
talking points is generally speaking
conservatism is smaller government yeah
the executive form of government we have
in this County right now is a larger
form of the government we need right
yeah if you're looking at it as a
conservative right as a true fiscal
conservative um then you definitely want
to vote for question a because of the
fact that fundamentally we have seen an
expansion of government size and in
terms of bloated administrative salaries
new positions unfunded positions
unfunded positions why do we need a
budget control uh form right why do we
need a charter for that matter you know
current executive correct correct okay
when does um
Alexandria acasio Cortez and Camala
Harris come I mean they're on this
mailer put out and uh it was cute though
well it was interesting because in a
different mailer uh we have Wes Moore
well I mean what so yeah so let's
explain this to the public so one of the
mailers that uh Miss Giordano's campaign
sent out had a picture of her and our
liberal Progressive Governor West Moore
buddy buddy um you know touting um you
know that it's not about parties it's
about working together right that was
one mailer and I believe that was sent
out I guess mainly to democratic voters
or Democratic leaning voters and at the
same time another mailer comes out that
basically says that question a is a
liberal power grab and no no it's a
liberal wave liberal wave sorry and that
and that if it if it passes woke
policies and um and sort of all
Progressive things will happen so you're
telling a certain group of people one
thing and then you're telling another
group right in the same Community the
exact opposite well I think one of the
things that we touched on early um and
we did it with our episodes and we did
it with video evidence was I mean our
current executive did flat fund our
volunteer fire departments that's
accurate well this so Public Safety is
not is a as important to her as say the
liquor bill has been right yeah I think
I think here here's the the simple
reality everything that at least we have
stated in our material has been
factually true factually true whether
you want to believe it or not it's a
whole different story there are people
who don't believe the world is round
that's true so you know I don't know if
they work in the executive LA office is
that a Republican or a Democrat thing I
don't know I don't know I last I heard
the Earth was unaffiliated okay but um
and neither is this right correct
correct and this is the other thing
right if you look at the facts right we
have a republican majority Council uh
that put this on the ballot we have
prominent Republicans that are in favor
of it and we have prominent people on
the other side too well so Le let's talk
the numbers
let's State the fact there's seven
County council members five of them are
Republicans two are Democrats correct of
the five four of them voted to put the
referendum to the voters so four out of
five Republicans thought this was a good
idea now there's two Democrats one of
the two thought that yes so for being
fair half of the people in this room
identify as a Republican and half
identify as a Democrat you're a Democrat
right and none of this really matters to
any part of this we just really want
transparent government correct correct
correct and I think that's kind of the
thing that we need to get back to is
that you know I think when you get down
to the local issues it's not just that
National politics matters less at the
local level but I think you tend to I
think it's in our human nature to want
to live among people that we care about
and we we tend not to want to think as
sort of like different tribes when
you're at that local level you know if
you're my neighbor and your house is on
fire I'm not going to care care any less
because you might vote a certain way or
at least I shouldn't well I think the
only tribe we're all a part of in this
county is the wo County uh resident
tribe right correct I mean last I
checked we are all residents of wo so if
we're if if we're taking a look at this
from uh from a pragmatic standpoint and
and uh talking about results in October
and not that either one of us are
endorsers of the County Council any one
member or even them as a group itself
just that form of government one of the
things our current Executives really
hung her hat on are these results like
airport expansion a new Sheriff's Office
uh a mechanic school let's dive in a
little bit how we really got there on
those just those three subjects sure
well all three of those initiatives
right took years of various planning
funding and organization and all three
did not have fundamentally anything to
do with whether or not we have a county
executive
it's in regards to working with State
officials it's in regards with County
planning and budgeting and sort of
broader Regional Economic Development
well I mean the airport expansion for
instance started 10 years ago has taken
County
Council uh to to different County
councils not the current one just
different ones to continually move that
those yard sticks down the field and now
here we are but the press conference
just last week again with Governor Moore
who wasn't around when we started this
true with our current County Executive
and at no point did they even introduce
our council president who's been on the
council the entire time this has been
going on true but but this may surprise
some people but certain ambitious
politicians tend to like to take credit
for things that they're not involved
with well talking about something that
neither side is involved with is the
mechanic school at the at the airport
that money was given to us by Governor
Hogan uh but to the tri Count Council
not even our current County Council is
$10 million
a third was split to Somerset a third to
Worcester and a third to W Comico W
Comico County Council chose to to take
that money and put a mechanic school in
in conjunction with UMES right even our
current County Executive admitted that
that came about just three days before
she was she came in the office and all
she did was sign the check over so she
didn't create it I don't think so unless
you watched the press conference last
week I'm shocked let say that we want to
just actually sit down and look at some
of the bigger accomplishments that have
happened in this County over the last
few decades right the things that are
more notable for example the creation of
the Henry Parker Sports Complex the
establishment of wward Community College
the creation of shorebird Stadium the
Civic Center these are things that all
happened without a county executive
County Executive had no role in the
development of those massive things
those were County Council based
accomplishments and so whether you're
for or against those things you canect
at least voice your views on them yes as
they develop yeah and many folks have
unfortunately often the county
Executives not been there to hear those
and I'd like to share in our last
segment is a presentation that you gave
uh to a large group in the community at
the art center in Salisbury and I think
that it gets a chance to maybe answer
some more questions that maybe people
who are just coming into to knowledge
that this is a a ballot initiative uh
this November would have a chance to get
some of their questions asked and and
I'd like to play that that's great yeah
I appreciate it so now we're going to
have a presentation by a very specific
Professor from Salsbury University who's
going to give the broader public a
little bit of a background um as to why
we feel uh that question a is so
important for the voters to vote for um
this was a presentation given recently
to a group bipartisan group of our
community members uh in downtown
Salsbury so I hope you watch it and I
hope you like the opening metaphor
what are we looking at right
here the bypass yeah it's Route 50 right
and you're going east right very good
all right I want you to imagine
something imagine for hypothetically
that you are driving on
R50 right but you are going the wrong
way on the westbound Lane right so
you're heading east but you happen to be
in the westbound Lane not a good
situation trucks are coming at
you Motorcycles Cars all kinds of
vehicles right now in that scenario and
I really want an answer do you blame the
individual cars and trucks and motorcyc
is coming at you or do you realize that
you're going down the wrong path and
need to correct the situation who thinks
you should get off that
road okay who thinks you should keep
going okay if you could understand that
then I think you can understand the
essence of question a because that's
really what this is about for 20 years
our county has gone through an exp
experiment nearly 20 years an experiment
which we created an executive form of
government that theoretically would have
been a check and balance on our Council
now our argument is that it hasn't been
in fact it's been more or less a
catastrophe in many ways but let's put
that aside for the moment let's look at
it in a broader perspective there
are
only 16% of the counties in the United
States of America that have count County
Executive and guess what most of them
believe it or not tend to have far
larger populations although some of the
biggest counties in the country like Los
Angeles County which has 10 million
people doesn't so whenever you hear the
argument that we're a growing County I
want you to understand that counties far
larger than us don't even have this the
majority of the United States of America
does not have the county executive
system
now what are the biggest concerns at
least from from our perspective simply
put the executive form government has
created a unilateral decision-making
apparatus that is fundamentally Beyond
even basic regulation at this
point the budget priorities in power of
one single person
determined pretty much every aspect of
County funding with the exception of
Education which nevertheless still has
the power to set the much the council
can only take away so one person has the
ability to determine
who gets
what total out of
transparency and use of most taxpayer
funds I want you should understand this
regardless if it was Mr P or the current
County Executive the discretion that
exists to operate without oversight in
the county executive system is at a
level that in wo County we have less
transparency over those actions than
most other County Executive systems
Angela also has more regulations on what
she can do as a county executive in her
County than withouts we designed it in
such a way where we basically create a
vague system that is allowed to sort of
fester and develop into something
entirely different than what it was
created as 20 years
ago there's no true accountability for
Charter violations other than saying
that there are uh and there's no
mechanism to really remove an
executive and I think everybody would
agree with this and this is particularly
true the last few years Len the office
of the executive has been used to
individually Target and weaponize
citizens there have been attempts by the
executive's office and staff members to
literally get people arrested get them
fired from their jobs and get them
ultimately publicly slandered that is a
fact and if one person with the
apparatus of the local government can
literally go after an individual Citizen
and there's no check on that then that
ain't a check in IM balance that is a
local form of authoritarianism and I
know people are concerned about that
concept whatever your partying
back let's look at the effects that it's
had on the actual situation of employees
25% in a most recent internal audit
report 25% of our County Employees
reported being abused or harassed
33% reported
witnessing we now have an age of 23%
vacancy range in most departments one of
the highest in the state now education
big one for me big one for many people
here well guess what when we began this
executive system 20 years ago we funded
public education at about 43% regardless
of who's been in office whether it was
Mr Po or m j m j Don now it's dropped
second lowest in the state at 26% so
we've massively defunded our actual
funding for education and again part of
is just one person can set the
priority what this was being debated 20
years ago and thank you for to Harry for
this because I had the chance to read Mr
Victor chala's report that he fought 20
years ago in that 30 page report quote
the weakness of this form of government
that proposed executive system is the
Reliance placed on a single person to
lead and match effectively usually the
qualifications for an elected executive
are not spout out in the county TR
another R is the traditional concern
about the county from govern placing
cons extensive operational and political
power in the hands of a single
individual so this was something that we
worried about 20 years ago in fact Tony
sarin put it very well in the Salsbury
independent 20 years ago he said the
county executive system invests too much
power in one person and adds another
Bucy it will ultimately cost the county
more money and this does not seem
feasible under the constraints of
Theos Years Ago by the revenue
thank you former councilman Ernie Davis
recently in an interview with Gaines
Hawkins actually said it best too thank
you for this quote the county executive
has free reign to do whatever he or she
wants said Davis no controls on the
position lead to chaos I couldn't agree
more Phil McCain made an interesting
point in his
interview Mr hulkin he said pols as a
county executive mostly work because of
his personality a consensus
Seeker in sense the government can work
with the right individual I would argue
that you have to depend on the direction
of the entire County government based on
one person's personality that's not a
very stable system why just revise the
charter this is something that a lot of
people have said right well if you don't
like the system amend it well we've
amended the charter at least 13 times
since 2006 one year in 2016 we actually
amended it seven times none of them un
fortunately have had any discernable
impact on actually ringing the abuses
because fundamentally the creation of
the position was so vague and so Broad
and so ill defined that any executive
can effectively run not another branch
of government but as I would argue and
others a parallel government it's really
important to think of it as two
governments right now not as a check in
Balance because one operates with no
public
oversight to put it in context in an
interview yesterday Julie jonal said
that she signed quote 41 mlus that's
memorandums of understanding now we no
one knew about that that number how do
we find out she said it in an interview
if one person has that much discretion
it's not a good sustainable
system Phil Tillman recently said people
considering the current reference should
ask yourselves if the county executing
system has more or less expensive more
or less efficient of public officials
who made ex decisions been more or less
accessible his answer more costly less
efficient and mostly
inaccessible if question fails this is
our argument things will only get worse
and here's why this executive Now
controls the apparatus of the Republican
party in such a way that anybody who
does not swear stalinist level
loyalty no I'm not joking that's the
truth you know it they will be pushed
out she already has a list of candidates
and slated candidates to replace
existing members when they either
retired or primary and so what are the
goals and I want you understand all
these things we've heard directly from
employees who have either been fired or
quit and I've told this directly she
plans to a privatize the roads and
public works and waste
division push through liquor store
expansion liquor stores on every corner
her own campaign donors have said that
publicly continued underfunding the
public education so much for being a
teacher stacking the local commissions
and oversight boards this is often
overlooked most of the people that have
been put into the commissions are
relatives or friends of campaign
contributors you don't tend to know that
and neither does the council because the
research required to find that out often
takes weeks incredibly
power Gates Hawkins said the best he
criticized the county executive back
when she tried to get Dan Cox hired at
an exuberant fee for her her staff he
said
it's going to be a tumultous four years
if question a fails it's going to be a
lot longer than four years now the
reality is
this I'm of the belief that most decent
people regardless of your political
party believe that fundamentally no
local government should be weaponized
against its people and should operate
with Bas and transparency the executive
is doing it both ways she recently s out
a mail with Wes Moore saying it's not
about left or right it's about right or
wrong she sent that to Democrat voters
then she sent went out to Republicans
with Cala Harris AMC saying question a
is a liberal power Grant well four out
of the five council members that voted
for it are
Republican so I don't buy that argument
but the common denominator in this both
of these ads funded by her reelection
campaign so it's not about the the
principle of check and balance it's
about a politician who's using it for
furthering their career and I don't care
whether it's her or Rick poet or Carl
anderton or anybody else if this
position with so much
Authority can be used so capriciously
just for that we are in big trouble this
executive as other Executives in systems
that have this kind of structure are not
above going after people in their own
party and one of the things you have to
understand is that the Republican party
in white Comico County never officially
took a position on question a but
because this executive because they
control the apparatus they've turned it
into a fundamentally political issue
these critiques are not just about Julie
Jon they go back well before that look
at all of the policies the major ones
not just this County Executive but going
back really to Bob
Culver the concentration of power into
one person has allowed all these special
interests to basically usurp local
attitudes and
concerns oh they're going to love this
one it is
