Open Agenda Episode 22: Joe V and Joe W
Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
you're watching open Agenda here's our
host Joe
White thanks for joining us here at open
Agenda I'm your host Joe White our show
now is going to transition to covering
the city government and the County
government the hearings the politics and
the ideas that we think you you need to
be aware of in the studio with me is Dr
Joe venosa Joe thanks for coming out
thank you Joe so there's three things I
think we should cover in in today's
episode one is the planning and zoning
for the density and this involves both
the city and the county uh the County
council meeting that's coming up on
Tuesday uh November 19th and then also
kind of taking a look back at the CIP
hearing that the county executive hosted
at the Civic Center on Wednesday this
week uh but let's let's jump into it a
little bit with this Planning and Zoning
uh I know you follow City politics a lot
uh can you speak a little bit about
what's coming up sure so what has been
occurring over the last few months is an
ongoing debate that basically is about
the future of Downtown Development and
in very simple terms there's an attempt
by certain developer interests to revise
revamp and change the density code for
the city what is it currently I think
it's 80 per unit I have 40 per I'm sorry
I'm sorry 40 per it's yeah yeah and but
they're trying to go to 80 they're
trying to go to 80 all right and this is
in in regards to the location of with um
certain parking lots that were sold by
the city years ago basically basically
for nothing that have now been bought um
by
uh Brad Gillis okay and the intention is
to build basically luxury apartments but
if they do make this change from 40 uh
units per acre to 80 this doesn't just
impact those parking lot areas this
could impact any any o Open vacant Lots
in the downtown area it affects the
whole future City development uh it's
certainly going to affect uh obviously
parking uh but also sort of just the
character and shape of downtown and
particularly businesses that are already
there uh that are concerned and and so
there is there is an interesting divide
between certain interest groups on this
topic well you know someone watching the
show too right now who doesn't live in
the city doesn't own a business downtown
maybe doesn't even shop downtown this
could impact them too if they're a juror
and circuit court or if they're just
trying to go to a public hearing yep or
the library for as long as it's down
there yeah yeah yeah the the the real
heart of of the matter Joe is this is
that there have been attempts already to
change the zoning code just last year
correct correct and it failed and they
also went to court for it meaning uh
Brad Gillis and certain other developers
were trying to change it and it was
rejected yeah judge Jackson his decision
was pretty I mean there wasn't a lot of
gray area in no it was thrown out and
that was at 77 units per acre so not
that were much difference but now we're
somehow asking for even more units per
correct correct so how would this
process get approved I mean what so
obviously now they're appealing to the
the Planning and Zoning which right I
think one thing that should be stated
are planning and zoning in this County
actually represents the city and the
county together it's there's only yeah
correct and so the Theory would be then
if that were to be changed somehow then
it would go to the city council for a
vote and then they would essentially try
to um en encourage I guess or direct the
administration the mayor's office to uh
sign off on on those changes well you
and I have several very reliable sources
both on the city Side the county side
and and private citizens business owners
uh there a couple things that people
have talked about that that they could
do the public could do to make their
voice heard is one is if you if you
google don't strangle downtown Salisbury
you'll you'll find the the top listing
will be a petition uh they have over a
thousand signatures now uh I think even
more so you could get information from
this site to decide you know how you
feel about it is that correct correct
correct I also think it's very useful
for citizens to actually watch uh the
City Council meetings over the last two
weeks really because you get a better
sense as to how the arguments and the
interest groups that are in the
community are kind of positioning
themselves um there was a meeting this
past week on Tuesday and what you begin
to see is again there is there's a kind
of conflation on this on the density
issue with affordable housing meaning
there's a there's an argument that some
people will be making that you can get
more affordable housing if the density
code is changed but the but the The
Proposal here isn't for affordable
housing not at all and that's that's the
point right is that I think that Point's
been made in the city council meeting it
has but there is a high degree of
misinformation on that I think people uh
for whatever reason are conflating
luxury apartments with affordable
housing you know the irony is at the
city just from the city perspective they
can they can put in legislation that
requires an affordable housing component
so if our Council if our County excuse
me if our city council president des
shwn dowy and and others really really
believe uh in affordable housing they
can do it through other means um this
density code issue has nothing to do
with that topic well look and let's
explore this a little bit in the air of
transparency not in the air of throwing
someone under the bus but but but Mr
dowy he is actually employed by a
developer is that accurate correct Green
Street housing so uh what role I mean do
do we know if there's a role that
they're playing in this at this point I
mean he obviously is the city council
president sure U not specifically them
but there have been a lot of public and
private tensions between developers and
particularly the mayor's office the last
year uh in simple terms the previous
administration under Jake day gave away
a lot of City resources to developers
and mayor Taylor's current
Administration has has had a much more
cautious approach to some of those
dealings and there have been very recent
um legal entanglements between some of
these developers and the city of
Solsbury through the mayor's office are
you talking specifically The Horizon
fund program in part but there were
other issues for example M Mitchell's
Landing uh which was low-income housing
uh on the west side of of the city uh
was the centerpiece of a real dispute
between Green Street housing in the city
and that's being torn down now it is but
there were a lot of legal debates about
sort of liability and responsibility for
um the sale of those units and there was
a very very uh tense period not too long
ago where Dave lafield who is the um
principal owner of Green Street housing
and Mr Dow's employer uh went to a city
council meeting and and in a very and
and you can watch it it's a pretty irate
manner basically went off on the mayor
went off on the city and and just
threatened litigation well how would
someone watch that video right now sure
so the date of that particular video and
I can find it and and come back for an
update uh but I believe it happened in I
I think September okay and if you go to
pack 14 and just scroll down to the
archived videos much like we have County
Council meetings in our episode uh you
can find City Council meetings because
if you're if you're a County resident
and you're not a city resident you're
thinking well this maybe doesn't impact
me oh but actually this very much does
it does because whatever Planning and
Zoning decides affects both entities
yeah I think one of the the nice well
not nice uh one of the important topics
I heard is this is not a wait and see
what happens moment this is hey if
you're any kind of a stakeholder now is
the time to make your voice heard
correct and that might be a good point
to then remind the public uh for the
date and time and location for that
meeting so Planning and Zoning they
actually meet at the government office
building uh on Thursday November 21st so
they meet every third Thursday of the
month their meetings at 1:30 in the
afternoon uh I've reached out to some
County Council folks uh some other
business owners downtown this is not
really one of those times where you can
just send an email to your County
council rep or your city council rep
you're going to have to show up and
you're probably going to have to be
ready to speak um it's not hard to do
and there's lots of folks like you and I
who are down at these meetings that will
help folks do it but at the same time um
you know if you're ever going to be on a
jury and you want to have a parking spot
downtown or you want to go to the
library while it's still down there or
you want to have a business that you can
you know have customers have customers
well and we've seen that we've seen some
businesses who have moved out of
downtown with maybe the eye to come back
and they've they've flourished outside
of it and they're they're choosing not
to so uh I want to speak to one other
thing what what is the role of the
greater Salisbury committee and this
process well I think that's one of the
more problematic things and I would say
from my own very specific biased view I
would say it's one of the more
disturbing things because we know that
there are at least four members of the
greater Salsbury committee that
currently sit on planning and zoning and
we know that the greater Salsbury
committee or should I say certain
elements of leadership of the greater
Salsbury committee are very much in
favor of allowing uh more
density uh changes to occur so meaning
they are definitely sort of on the side
of the developers here so there's a lot
of times this group has done a lot of
positive things for the community but
their meetings are not necessarily open
to the public they're not published and
there's not necessarily public comments
not even minutes for the most part
correct uh so if you want to have your
voice heard you're going to have to come
to this planning and zoning committee
correct correct yeah so you know we kind
of touched on the horizon fund uh and
and in our next segment I'd like to talk
about the County council meeting in
their agenda one of the things they have
on their agenda for their next meeting
is a work session about the Horizon fund
so uh let's stick around for another
segment and when we come back let's
start to kind of break down that uh
agenda and also maybe tie it back into
this Planning and Zoning meeting
great stay with us we'll be back after
this the 3.8 acre wpen Park is situated
on wpen Creek about 20 mi west of
Salsbury the park is improved with a
concrete boat ramp that provides easy
access to the Nanticoke River less than
a mile Downstream vehic and trailer
parking is adequate relative to the
Park's use and there's also a soft
launch for canoes and kayaks a small
picnic area and a Portage on for your
convenience swimming is not permitted at
wpen Park as the currents can be
dangerously strong at times wipin Creek
meanders through the salt marshes and
adjacent Pine Forest of the wipin
Wildlife Management Area just beyond the
loww Water Bridge next to the park the
creek splits into two branches the
northern prong of which is longer
extending Upstream for a distance of
about 4 miles the salt marshes along
with tipin Creek support a wide variety
of wildlife mosquitoes and green-headed
flies included and harbor many different
types of yearr round and migratory Birds
throughout the seasons the Upstream area
beyond the bridge is best explored by
canoe or kayak but be prepared because
you can expect strong currents at times
if you're operating a motorboat heading
Upstream my advice would be not to go
very far at low tide the water becomes
very shallow in spots and you may find
yourself high and dry or sucking up mud
into your motor trust me on this I speak
from experience just across from the
boat ramp at wpen Park you'll notice the
remains of docks and boat slips which in
days gone by harbored commercial
oystering and crabbing boats but in the
early 1970s after the oyster population
collapsed throughout the Chesapeake Bay
the dock facility fell into disuse and
now only ghostly remnants can be seen
one of the most interesting features of
wpen Park is the quaint wood Timber
Bridge spanning the creek immediately
adjacent to the park which is known as
the Ed Taylor bridge if you walk onto
the bridge you'll get a magnificent view
of wpen Creek and the Wildlife
Management Area but please be very
careful because there's no separation
between vehicular and pedestrian traffic
originally built in the early 1950s the
bridge fell into disrepair but was
reconstructed and placed back into
service in 2009 Ed Taylor For Whom the
bridge is named was a w Comico County
councilman educator and Korean War
veteran who grew up in the wipin area
and championed the bridges
reconstruction today the bridge is one
of his proudest legacies for more
information about wpen Park please visit
the W Comico County Department of
recreation parks and tourism website
welcome back to open Agenda I'm your
host Joe White Dr venos is still in the
studio with us so you know we we talked
about the Horizon fund and and the next
city or the next County council meeting
is on November 19th now this is a 10
a.m. meeting it's also at the government
office building
301 uh towards the end of the meeting in
the work session is going to be a work
session not a public hearing but on the
horizon fund program uh you know you you
you've been following this this program
for a while explain a little bit about
what this program means and and and how
they're trying to you know Sunset it
well basically the county voted for this
program I want to say four years ago
maybe three it's a multi-year process
but essentially it's about development
incentives okay and now that it's run
its course the big concern is that it
really hasn't financially benefited the
county in in any way uh particularly
given the fact that some of the
businesses that are affiliated with The
Horizon's program especially the Ross
building which is done through I believe
it's
me properties has had their own
Financial sort of um problems recently
in terms of uh some of their actions was
the goal of the Horizon fund
to especially during that time when the
when the building wasn't at fully
occupied to not force a developer to pay
full property taxes and also incentivize
them to invest it's sort of waving of
certain hookup fees um it's certainly
about you know I guess again the theory
is incentivizing certain development
developers excuse me to um invest more
in these kinds of projects um I think
the problem has always been um to what
extent is local government responsible
for Private Industry to do these things
when there's not a guarantee on the back
end well you know from a political
standpoint um you know as a conservative
it it's not something that normally you
see that they want to to you know prop
up a a big Corporation but also usually
to from the more Democrat side well as a
progressive it's the same thing it's
it's sort of it's interesting that this
has become an odd consensus among some
regardless of party that we are kind of
socializing certain development excuse
me developer interests maybe the
government's picking winners and losers
well I think it's the essence of the
concern is that and and somebody has and
there have been actually a lot of people
that have brought this up but for
example why would the Ross get a
particular kind of government support
when a hotel in let's say Fruitland
doesn't get it but they're still
building hotels in Fruitland right so
clearly you know Commerce and
development is still happening well and
I think one of the the nice things about
the Ross is I mean it is nearly at
capacity shortly after it opens so you
know from a it took a couple years yeah
yeah but I mean in this in this juncture
that they are are actually very yeah
yeah it begs the question why more yeah
and I think the other thing that should
be said is the current County Council
and the C current uh city council
they're not the ones who approved this
program correct maybe some of the
members were there sure but uh but I
know from the County Council I mean this
program passed by a 4 to3 vote it was
not some sort of like ringing
endorsement here sure and and my guess
is that it would probably pass or fail
by a similar vote margin yeah even now
yeah so in the very first part of the
meeting there are going to be four
public hearings uh some of them are on
you know easements for for land
preservation and that sort of thing but
one of the bigger ones uh is is from
Parks recck and tourism and this is to
to add $2.75 million to their capital
budget for the exterior of the Civic
Center Renovations this is a pretty
impressive program or uh project yeah um
and you know obviously we were working
out of the election uh early voting
there's not even really a a good
handicap accessible ramp in the in the
Midway there's there's none yeah there
like way down the corner or over by the
Normandy Arena yeah uh this actually
this project would uh actually add some
safety so that um you know the
pedestrians can get across that area a
lot in a lot safer manner but also you
know modernize the box office and and
that sort of thing yeah I can remember
when my my friend uh Mr John posoda had
when he was acting County Executive uh
he had uh presented sort of the initial
schematics of it and uh it was really an
exciting project to see and and thinking
and I believe they're going to add a
cafe in in there too oh wow so well I
think this is a great chance for the
public to come and and get more
information uh get up for the three
minutes and and say their Piece One Way
or Another yeah I mean I think one of
our goals is really just to get more
people will involved and to see what's
happening yeah and and the more we have
involved the the the less likely extreme
processes and programs will ever get
approved because you know the majority
of folks are going to sit somewhere in
the middle yep most things I think so
they're also going to introduce a
legislative Bill
2024-25 to the W Comico county code um
and and specifically uh rules and
regulations about uh vehicles that are
leased or owned by the county MH I I
remember back in November uh and and we
put this in some of our other videos uh
there was a work session with the county
executive and the County Council where
there's a big concern about how Vehicles
can get moved from Department to
Department maybe even driver to driver
um what what do you think about this
yeah well again you know I think this is
uh being done unfortunately because of
past executive office uh policies where
certain Personnel have been given
vehicles or have been allowed to move
equipment without the Public's knowledge
without a financial accounting of of
those actions and and so I think and I
think we're going to see this over the
next few months that the council is
going to try to put a few more guard
rails on some of the ability of the
executive office to just have complete
um control over some of these important
resources yeah it's not just a current
executive this this has been a problem
before this is a problem before and
what's interesting it's getting worse
it's getting worse and it's interesting
thing that in other Maryland counties
there's far more regulation on things as
simple as vehicle allocation well many
years ago uh and and we had um
councilman Holloway in here talking
about the benefits packages you know
healthc care retirement amongst
different departments and at one time
many years ago it was all just it was
just a line item in the operating budget
you know health benefits retirement all
that kind of stuff but you didn't know
how much each department truly cost you
until you assigned those benefits to the
department they were in so if you're
trying to really figure out hey can we
afford you know Parks wreck and tourism
right uh or can we afford how much does
it cost it how much does it really cost
us right and and now the vehicles
especially since the county has adopted
more of a lease program they're they're
not broken out in the same way we're
asking for benefits to be done correct
uh I think the other thing too and we
saw this firsthand uh just being out and
about in the county is there's a lot of
County vehicles that aren't marked mhm
so if you're having misappropriation of
resources yeah that doesn't have to be
funds it can be Vehicles sure if they're
not marked then we don't know right
right and and it also goes into other
scenarios like you know hypothetically
what if somebody from the executive
office was in a car accident with a
particular vehicle you know what if that
vehicle had been let's say in the
process of being planned to to be used
by somebody else yeah you know if
somebody's using it in an unregulated
man and we can't account for it you know
that that just from the logistics of our
resources well we've recently had an
employee from the executive's office in
a car accident really and uh you know
not that there was any fault okay but at
the same time you know from an air
transparency um you know if you own a
business and you let one of your
employees drive that vehicle the
business owner is taking the risk yeah
um I mean obviously the person driving
is also taking somewhat of a risk but
the business owner is taking a risk
well in this case the taxpayers are the
business owner correct these are our
resources they're not made to be passed
out and and and that sort of you know it
willy-nilly yeah yeah uh the the the
public comment section at the County
council meeting I think also would be
very pertinent when we're tying this
back to the Planning and Zoning that we
were just talking about for the city and
the county that's combined on November
21st there will be an opportunity for
public comments
at the County council meeting on the
19th which is two days before M those
public comments are really open for any
topic you're not you're not supposed to
be derogatory or attack anybody but this
is a great opportunity for someone who
says hey you know what I can't come out
to Planning and Zoning on on on the 21st
at 1:30 but I can make the 10:00 meeting
right uh really want people to take
advantage of that correct it's a great
Point yeah so we had one other hearing
yesterday and in our last I'd like to
discuss that that was the the county
executive did host a u a capital
Improvement plan hearing at the Civic
Center uh several folks attended and and
took the opportunity to speak so in our
last segment I think we should cover
that sounds good all right so in our
last segment we're going to talk about
the capital Improvement plan what was
said and also how that's going to impact
the budget process in the spring stay
with us we'll be right
back welcome back to open agenda our
last segment today with Dr jenos so
we're going to talk about the capital
Improvement U hearing that we that the
county executive just hosted so talk a
little bit about uh why these types of
public hearings are important and why
people should show up sure well the CIP
or the capital Improvement plan is
basically a series
of I guess you could say goals and sort
of like a wish list that the executive
branch uh would lay out for the public
regard regarding priorities and you know
sort of things that they believe the
county should um invest in in the future
why it's important is because members of
the public right who have an interest in
certain things whether it's the
construction of a school or a park or
priority funding for a department let's
say have an opportunity to both critique
the initial CIP that's been delivered
and also provide perhaps additional
comments or concerns well one of my
favorite Parts about yesterday is
hearing well one that we had it I wish
it was publicized better yes that's been
a common critique that others have said
recently that it wasn't widely known
well but before the meeting started uh
Director of Finance Pam Olan did take
some time to talk about what is
considered a capital project how some of
these projects got on the initial list
um in in no way shape or form where they
trying to say this was a final list or
even maybe even trying to insinuate it
was in any kind of certain order sure
but there were there were questions
raised about information you know you
take for instance Mason Dixon Sports
Complex I I know from going to Parks and
Rec meetings that there is a number
associated with that renovation of the
Mason Dixon Sports Complex they they
know what it would cost in today dollars
now you can project out that hey if we
decide not to do this until
2029 pick a pick an inflation number
you're you're probably going to be wrong
but because you know who knows inflation
but at least you have some sort of guide
right our current CIP does not have that
and has not had that is that is that
accurate yeah and and and you know again
the idea that you have a capital
Improvement plan and don't have those
numbers baked in you know even just you
know sort of different scenarios to
project out it's kind of strange it's
really strange when you consider that in
the Parks recck meeting they do have the
number now they don't have it mapped out
for four five six years sure that's what
I would hope a finance department would
do but I will say that and they did
discuss this last night you know board
of education is the ones who came up
with their Capital
Improvement ideas so the ones you saw on
there didn't just come out of thin air
they came from Board of Education which
is where they should come from correct
parks and wck came from Parks and wreck
I think as a as a taxpayer who wants to
see our tax dollars once spent well but
also want to see as many amenities as we
can afford and afford to maintain right
you you need this information because at
the end of the day you don't know am I
deciding on five different Park projects
or one school right well if the school
was Fruitland primary and in the shape
it was in you may have to yeah put aside
five Park projects but if you were going
to all of a sudden start five part
projects it might be good to know that
hey this isn't as much money as it seems
because it's they're smaller numbers
it's the basics of budgeting right is
okay if you know the numbers you're
working with even in a general sense
then we can figure out what our
priorities and allocations are yeah and
with all those numbers it makes it sort
of you know it turns it from a CIP to a
Christmas wishlist well right now I'd
say we are more of a Christmas wish list
I agree now several folks from the Board
of Education stood up and spoke uh early
in the in the in the hearing yeah and
one of the things I learned and I did
not know this from going to work
sessions uh being into the budget
process that happened last spring for
the current fiscal year m is that they
take Fruitland primary school for
instance a lot was added into that
school it's not really just a school
there's a a health center there's a food
pantry they're planning on those
facilities being used for after school
programs but also parks and wreck
programs um again in the a of
transparency like isn't it really
important to understand what our tax
dollars are being spent on absolutely I
had no idea that the total price tag of
Fruitland primary school is $56 million
now some of that will be reimbursed by
the state although it was really kind of
hard to understand how that process
worked I hope some of this gets
explained in these these future meetings
that will happen between now and the
spring when we do the next set of budget
process yeah and I want to talk more
about that in a minute but at the same
time
uh having been at these meetings
recently at no point in time did they
naturally come up like they they didn't
so let's talk a little bit about what's
next on the pro process so this CIP
we've had the hearing it now takes the
executive to submit this to the County
Council sometime during the winter
before the operating budget starts
correct uh last year there were some
hurt feelings you know as far as like
how robust the
the CIP was you know and and
understand lot lots of lots of rhetoric
going around that it wasn't just a bit
yeah just a little bit uh but the public
really should jump involved and get
involved in this stage because this is
going to lead to the operating budget
being decided on is that right yeah and
and I think the context of that
involvement also matters because again
we are in a system and this would have
been true regardless of the recent
results of the uh ballot question but
right now the executive office has sold
discretionary power over setting the
budget the CIP and there are limits on
what the council can do so if you have
more public pressure if you have more of
an actual
um just sort of motivated public to get
involved to understand you know what is
the proposal what do we want what do we
worried about that kind of public
pressure and push for transparency could
have a real effect on some of these
projects well and I think at this point
that's exactly what we're hoping on uh
obviously we're disappointed in the
election results really respect the
voters for deciding to continue with the
executive branch but ultimately our goal
to push for question a was for
transparency sure so this didn't pass
yeah so we need to work on it a
different way sure right sure I and I
think you have to keep in mind too that
almost 47% of County residents right now
think that the executive position
shouldn't exist still so in a sense um
it's going to really be on the executive
office uh and the county to some extent
to prove that this system that we've
continued down and just voted to
continue uh even more so uh can still
work and so I think part of that
essential process is more transparency
it has to be Community having interest
but it also has to have people asking
the right kinds of questions about where
their tax dollars go and who has the
authority to make big decisions that
affect thousands of people yeah I mean I
I I I I give the county executive a lot
of credit we had the hearing yesterday
so now we're we're at the first stage of
a five-month process we need public
input we need our our elected leaders to
hear it and Implement as many of those
ideas as possible yeah one of the
questions I would love to ask uh and and
you're not going to get it answered in
one one meeting is
we we we agree we need schools I mean
you're going to have to build schools
population increases schools age out but
should schools even cost $56 million how
does that process going to work because
we're also dealing with one other really
impactful uh part of of our lives right
now is is our state is facing over a$2
billion budget deficit correct so that's
not going to happen in a vacuum it's not
and that's also juxtaposed with national
Trends because we're going to have big
political changes coming and there's big
economic concerns about what deficits
and tax rates and future inflation may
or may not look like so you've got
uncertain times for the state uncertain
times for the country and let's be
honest we've had a substantially uh
increased budget over recent years in
just the county and so when we're
looking at again what do we prioritize
and what is it cost a certain amount of
money understanding not just what a
priority is but understanding what that
priority funding actually goes to is
really important yeah I think one of the
interesting things and we covered this
back in the summer when we had uh the
president of the council John Canon here
you know a lot of folks they want to
they want to talk about the revenue cap
holding back spending but in fact that's
not the biggest part of the pie right
with this County that the income tax the
piggyback tax is and and so we have been
able to grow the operating budget maybe
we're not all happy with what where
those priorities those buckets that that
money was put in but let's let's get
people involved let's get people there
uh reach out to your your city council
rep your County council rep go to
meetings just go to meetings just watch
and observe one of the most powerful
things last night at the CIP hearing I
mean maybe only 15 or 16 people got up
and spoke but there were over 50 people
there eyes and ears on our elected
officials it does not matter your
political party we all live here we we
all need to to be a part of it and
regardless of whether you live in a
municipality or not that's the other
thing I think we tend to forget yeah
it's all connected all right well thanks
for coming out we're going to keep this
conversation going um what we're hoping
for is some interaction so come out to
the meetings uh you'll see us there for
the most part and if you have questions
about how it is to get up and speak uh
you know we we're happy to explain it
we're not the only ones there there are
other folks as well so thanks for
joining us for this edition of open
agenda we'll be back next week with
another new
episode we think Mark Carroll is the
best editor ever
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