Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
you're watching open Agenda here's our
host Joe White thank you for watching us
here at open Agenda I'm your host Joe
White in the studio with me today is Dr
venosa thanks for coming out Joe thank
you sir so we want to talk a little bit
about the Planning and Zoning meeting uh
that happened last week the results of
that uh the the city council had a
meeting this week and fortunately there
wasn't any votes taken based off of the
recommendations that came from PL and
zonan accurate correct so some of the we
we want to lay some of the groundwork we
want to explain some of the the details
and this it's a couple layers and and I
think if we take our time I think we can
get through that maybe help bring
anybody who's kind of new to this topic
up to speed but they're talking about
the CBD the central business district in
Salsbury so what is that and what is
that a part of so it's a designation
that most municipalities have regarding
the location of core activities business
activities things of that nature and
obviously with regard to Salsbury for
downtown Salsbury it's historically been
a part of a broader comprehensive plan
that any City would have like if they
want to use it for retail or restaurants
yeah residential areial yeah how many
right exactly now right now currently
our our our resident rate is 40 units
per acre that's the density rate yeah
that's the density rate now the last
year the
developers that came you know they they
wanted to move it up to 77 is that is
that right yes it was 77 per unit and
the city council decided now and the
zoning board I believe last year also
said said no yeah but it got appealed in
in court is that right and it was thrown
out as well okay so so right now we're
at 40 units an acre it was asked to be
77 in
2023 was turned down and was also upheld
in court correct right now uh just at
the plan in zoning meeting we had uh
last week M the again developers asking
for a text Amendment and my
understanding that means hey Lista we're
actually going to change the code this
is not just for Joe's property this is
for all property in the CBD the central
business district right cor correct yeah
and this would actually move it up to 80
is that right yeah so you and I were at
the meeting uh and in several I mean
there was it was well attended well
attended lots of folks uh signed up to
speak it's a very long meeting right 5
hours I think from start to finish uh
very long it seemed very coordinated
didn't it Joe it did it did it did I
mean what what was your well I'm I'm
going to make the observation and others
have said this too but essentially if
you watch it it seems that the votes and
the discussion and the meeting format
were predetermined uh in the sense that
it was very scripted there were no real
opportunities to really debate and and
analyze the issue and I think a lot of
us in the community and again for for
clarity you know we all have our bias in
view I think most of us are not against
density uh the issue is how it's being
done in this way the fact that there
seems to be a lot of ethical concerns
and conflicts of interest at play with
certain um members of the planning and
zoning board with local developers and
and it sort of left a lot of people with
just a bad taste in their mouths in in
in terms of of how things get done by
entities that are supposedly there to
represent all of us well let's talk a
little bit about how things get done
sure planning zoning is one of really
the only committee that's actually
shared between wakako County and the
City of salsburg right correct and it
have seven members yes now uh the seven
members chipio Matt Drew uh Dan Danielle
Moreno Holt uh Deshawn d uh from the
Salsbury city council president uh Joe
Holloway who's W comu County councilman
from District 5 uh James Thomas and uh
George Mandel Copeland they're all
they're the seven they are the ones who
vote yeah uh so if you'd gone to the
meeting last Wednesday you would have
seen those seven folks sitting up at the
correct up at the front now the Salsbury
City staff they have like I uh Henry Ur
he he went up and and and gave the
report from the Salsbury City staff so
there is a there is a staff there as
well that assesses all of these
proposals yeah okay correct so so if
You' gone to the meeting you would have
seen Salsbury City staff yeah you would
have seen uh the the the members of the
pan zoning including somebody from the
Salsbury city council right and the
County Council yes uh their job is to to
hear out these to vet out these these uh
issues right correct uh so uh in this
case we had a developer uh Brad Gillis
yeah asking to increase the the density
to 80 units an acre right now tell me a
little bit you you I mean they read the
entire
yeah report from the staff yeah verbatim
so what was the what was the tone of
that sure well first shout out to Mr
Henry eray for having to read that all
that's that's quite the tall order I
think it clocked in at about 22 23
minutes um but the did report
essentially laid out you know what the
proposal is from Gillis gilkerson for
these I I I believe the um the entity
they've created for this project is
called like Salsbury Town Homes LLC this
is for luxury housing in the Central
business district but uh he laid out in
that did report all of the pros and cons
and the concerns and one of the things
that was constant in the report was the
fact that a lot of things that the
initial effort to change density last
year haven't been addressed and which
was like sewer sewer issues the water
more importantly you could argue though
the impact on city services more
broadly Fire EMS Services police all
these things are going to have an
exponential cost to the city that hasn't
been factored in and so if you listen or
read that report what their argument is
that um they're not necessarily opposed
to it but they are opposed to it in its
current form and basically advised that
they have a more collaborative approach
with the city to actually address those
concerns so infrastructure could include
fire service it also includes sewage but
also parking right parking is a big
aspect of it as well correct and it does
not seem as if the parking plan for this
is is from a from a public standpoint is
easily viewed I mean yeah there's
there's a parking garage that's going to
go in but but they haven't actually
given the details on that a lot of it is
speculative uh even in an interview that
Brad Gillis gave I think to wmdt a few
weeks back he basically said it's an
evolving project but didn't actually
give the details of what that Evolution
on parking would necessarily entail well
and and one of the questions is up and
and we don't know we haven't seen it
it's a traffic study yeah um they did
not present this at the planning zoning
uh and in the central business district
in Salsbury does have more than one you
know entry and exit but it's not flush
with them there very limited yeah yeah
Ian you had the river U some of the
bridges many years ago were removed and
um you know some some of those areas you
can't just get a firet Tru in from a
direct standpoint correct correct
correct it's a physical problem that has
yet to be dealt with so the Salsbury
City staff report seemed to not favor
this development at this time right it
wasn't a rejection of it but it said in
its current form which is essentially
just piggybacking off last year's
proposal but having more density again
that's a bit strange but but that was
sort of the core of their concern if you
listen to that report but on the other
side the greater Salsbury committee has
submitted a white paper in support of
this correct now I think one we we need
to discuss because so maybe you could
explain what is the greater Salsbury
committee what's their role in this so
the official line that we hear from its
members or spokesmen or its proponents
is that the greater Salsbury committee
is a group of local businessmen who are
giving back to the community by
promoting projects and issues that are
in the broader civic interest and and
their history by and large shows many
many great things that have been
accomplished through their group they've
been around since 1967 and they have
advoc at for some things that you could
make the argument have been positive for
the community and things that you could
argue have not I get the sense now
though attending County Council meetings
and and you attend most every city
council meeting that a lot of the times
they spend their their efforts promoting
things from with that would benefit
folks from within their own organization
is that yeah I mean I'm of the personal
belief that the greater Salsbury
committee is simply a local lobbying
organization in which it's certain
members that have very clear Financial
interests in certain projects push local
government toward those policies that
would benefit them well so on the
Planning and Zoning I mean to be fair
you have four current or former greater
Salsbury committee members on the
planing zoning chip toal Matt Drew
George Mandel Copeland and James Thomas
right are either current or maybe
somehow lifelong members of the greater
Salsbury committee correct correct
correct and and from certainly my view
and I think other people we feel that's
a very big ethical concern uh coupled
with the fact that another member of the
Planning and Zoning Mr deshan dowy is
himself an employee of a developer who
spoke in favor of this at planning and
zoning which means you could make the
argument that five of those members have
either personal business interests or
just associations that don't necessarily
look particularly ethical and I think
you know if they're going to be on the
Mee on the committee and discussing a
project that would either directly or
indirectly have a positive impact on
their business or a business that's a
part of a group that they're a part of
then it should be stated and uh so the
you know the the city staff report went
against it the white paper went went for
it uh Joe Holloway was the only person
in the end who voted against this text
Amendment from the plan and Zoning Board
is that right 6 to1 correct and I think
this is the thing that the public needs
to know uh what Mr Holloway suggested
right was simply that we table the text
amendment to discuss it and examine it
in more depth and what effectively
happened was the chairman Mr chip toi
and others effectively shut that down
and muscled it through now keep in mind
they rejected an even less uh ambitious
project last year so why the change now
with no real explanation is is the
concern well and and I actually have
another concern when we talk about the
comprehensive plan the current
comprehensive plan for the city of
Salsbury it does not show this project
in its current form not at all and we
don't know from that comprehensive plan
where the parking would would
potentially come from yeah uh actually
one of the one of the statements that's
been made is well let's build it and
we'll make adjustments we'll see how
this goes sure sure uh can we afford to
do that well I don't think we can but
keep in mind too that this text
Amendment doesn't just apply apply to
the one project in Lot 10 it also excuse
me in lot one I believe the the it also
applies to the lot 10 project which is
this new supposed hotel that they're
planning to construct so this text
amendment has real
ramifications
to all aspects of downtown life and so
it's going to have a fiscal and a
logistical impact that I think people
don't really
appreciate well you know I'm a County
resident I'm not I don't live in the
city yeah uh and sometimes you think
well hey I live out in the country what
difference does it make but uh one of
the points that's been brought up to me
is hey you know do you ever serve on a
jury do you ever try to go downtown to
uh pull a permit or to look up tax
records at the government office or use
the library right while it's still there
while it's still here U again you know
we we we we referenced back to the
greater Salsbury committee and we're not
trying to bash them what we want to know
is what's the whole plan talk about the
the library in instance I mean they're
they're also part of the group that's
very in favor of moving the library out
of downtown so in you know you're You're
Building all these apartments while
you're also moving their Library out
from yeah from that area right well it
seems like there's a kind of identity
crisis that's always been an issue right
is what do we want our downtown to be
okay and the different interest groups
periodically kind of shift their own
positioning on it it it would seem okay
so we're at a point point where Planning
and Zoning has sent this to basically
Salsbury city council uh they have not
done that yet we don't know if there'll
be another work session with the
Salsbury city council or if they'll go
to a vote uh at the next meeting but I
want to spend some time to really talk
about what folks out there would do if
if they if they see this video or if
they or if they've been reading about in
the papers and they're concerned how
would they how would they still make
their voice heard uh I think we should
take a break break when we come back
let's let's shift our focus on to what
folks can do to at least make their
opinion whatever that might be M make
sure it's impactful and heard
great so when we come back we're going
to spend a little bit more time talking
about what you can do to be involved and
make sure that your voice is heard stay
with us we'll be right
back nestled along the banks of the yico
river just 3 miles from downtown
Solsbury pton Historical Park provides a
window into 18th century Plantation life
on the Eastern Shore in addition to the
restored Colonial Plantation buildings
you can also discover 4 and 1/2 miles of
walking trails brackish water marshes
forests open space and Scenic views of
the W Comico River also available are
picnic areas with grills fishing ponds
public restrooms and a nature center the
900 acre Plantation known as pton Manor
was purchased by Isaac handy and his
wife and theil in
1726 50 years before the United States
became a nation they thereupon began
building the now restored Manor House
known as pton Hall which was completed
in 1741 with the skills and labor of
approximately 20 African slaves the
handy family grew tobacco for export to
England as well as a variety of food
crops for their own consumption and for
shipping to markets up and down the
Eastern Seaboard they also operated a
lumber mill maintained fruit orchards
made cider and Brandy and miled grain
Additionally the handies were part
owners of several ships which were used
to transport the plantation's bounty to
far away markets throughout the 1700s
tobacco was the plantation's primary
cash crop the dried tobacco was packed
into large barrels known as Hogs heads
which were rolled down to Mulberry
Landing Warf at the wat's edge over what
was known then as the Rolling Road the
Hogs heads of tobacco and other
Plantation products were then loaded
onto scows and moved to ships anchored
in deeper water for transport to their
destinations the driveway used to enter
the park was once part of that Rolling
Road and at low tide you may be able to
see remnants of the malberry landing
Warf which was built in
1746 and is the oldest documented
bulkhead WARF in the United States by
the 20th century the manor house pton
Hall had fallen into disrepair and by
the 19 1960s had become uninhabitable
but in 1963 the decaying buildings were
transferred to the pton hall Foundation
along with 262 Acres of the plantation's
original acreage after doing meticulous
research the pton hall Foundation
restored the manor house to its original
condition right down to the paint colors
and Furnishings pton Historical Park is
open all year From Dawn till Dusk the
manor house is open to the public on the
1st and 3rd Sundays of each month from
May through October between the hours of
1: and 300 p.m. Private Tours can also
be arranged and several public events
and festivals take place at the park
from Spring through fall for more
information visit the W Comico County
recreation parks and tourism website or
pton Hall foundation.com back to you
Joe welcome back to open Agenda in the
studio with me still is Dr venosa things
are sticking around so really want to
lay the groundwork on what's the future
of this text Amendment sure uh so that
folks whether they're in the city or in
the county can really understand where
where they stand right sure sure that's
very important to us very very so the
Salsbury city council is made up of five
folks they're all elected out of
different districts uh Michelle Gregory
Sharon Dil uh Angela Blake April Jackson
and and Deshawn
D Dy I'm sorry pronounced his name
uh he's the county or the city president
yes city coun city council pres yes so
there's five on the city council uh at
some point in December it's likely that
they're either going to have a work
session followed by a vote or maybe even
possibly go to a vote uh their meetings
are on the second Monday of the month so
the next one is December 9th at at 6
p.m. their meetings are always at 6 p.m.
always in the evenings yeah um if folks
can go there's there's comment section
yeah how does that work there maybe
versus how the County Council works is
it early in the meeting or it varies
based on what's on the agenda but
typically uh they're a little bit more
stringent as to you as a public speaker
uh in putting your name and your address
so when you go in they really do sort of
have an order where where you go in you
say your name at the County Council
meetings they tend to do it as okay if
you want to come up and speak come up
you don't really have to write in the
form but but you still can go up there
you still can go up there absolutely so
our understanding is it's likely that
Michelle Gregory and Angela Blake are
actually in favor of this text amendment
is that oh yeah I would I would bet the
farm that Michelle Gregory Angela Blake
and uh the city council president
Deshawn dowy are absolutely going to
vote in favor of of this they have been
unequivocally clear in promoting uh not
just what they see as development but
what I would see as developer interests
so I mean Joe I'm going to ask you it
almost seems like well it's a lost cause
right but but it's not it's not right
right and good so uh Sharon theil is is
very likely to vote against this from
from what we understand that's my
understanding she look she's free to
change her mind so is everybody else
correct April Jackson has said that she
is very um she she's looking to get some
feedback from her constituents is that
correct yeah yeah I think if you're
going to frame it as a current city
political Dynamic she seems to be the
one sort of Swing Vote now she's on
record as having voted against the sale
of these parking lots in the past and
has been against the density changes in
the past so whether or not that will
remain consistent um I think it's
anybody's guess but for our viewership
here uh it's important to consider that
even if let's say the city council
passes this the mayor may choose to veto
it okay and he's on record is maybe not
being very favorable to this this
particular project in this way yeah yeah
he's he has been and he and he ran on
this to his credit he he ran on being
much more critical about the selling of
City assets and changes to density and
Zoning so if it does pass but at a 3 to2
vote uh the next likely scenario is it
would go to Randy Taylor's office he's
the the mayor of Salsbury yes and he
would have the option to veto it he
could right if he does veto it at a 3
to2 um now it would go back to be
overridden they would have to vote again
they would have to find a fourth vote
yeah they they have they have to have a
four vote
um majority to override his veto so I
think it's really important here I mean
this is this is one of those times it's
it's like you can lose but you can you
can win and more importantly there are
there's time for folks to get their
voice and opinion out there most
certainly many many folks came out to
the Planning and Zoning meeting well
over a 100 people attended at the start
of the meeting yeah I mean five hours is
a pretty long well they they they cut us
down as the hours went along you know
people have to pick up kids or go to
work or whatever whatever but yeah but
there is still time to go to city
council is it is it even worth you think
for folks to reach out to the County
Council it is always worth any citizen
reaching out to your elected officials
because even if it may not go your way
you're using the opportunity to have
your voice heard um you know and
especially when elected officials
understand that there's some push back
and that there are public concerns even
if they may be in favor or against the
topic they may at least have some more
Nuance to it and they may try to address
aspects of it it was interesting I I was
talking to to to one of our County
council members who was was talking
about a topic at Board of of of
exceptions had now it's kind of like a
wing of planning and zoning and and and
they they elected in that in that
situation to Grant an exception but one
of the things he was really adamant
about is you can put restrictions on
things you can say Hey listen yes you
can you can have this this text
Amendment yes you can have this
exception in in this case in in the case
he was speaking of
but there are other restrictions but it
would take it would take people reaching
out to them correct it would it would
take public engagement and it would take
obviously more advocacy to our elected
officials and I think it's also
important to understand too whether
you're talking about the city council or
the County Council many of those folks
are elected in a district but they still
represent the entire entity they that's
what they'll tell you they will and that
that has been one of the great things uh
that we have seen at least in the last
few uh elected um Cycles is that the
officials even if they are representing
just officially District 2 or District 4
at the county or city level they will
very openly tell you you know I
represent everybody because I'm on the
city council or I'm on the County
Council so their concerns and their
their um focus doesn't end with their
district lines so uh April Jackson at
the last city council meeting she
elected to share her phone number m and
I I think we're going to post it here
it's a
41726
8478 now we're not asking to harass her
at any point that is not what we want
but uh but Miss Jackson did say that she
is she's always been open to to get the
the the feedback of her constituents
absolutely but I think this is really
where there's a lot of nuance here one
although she has a district in Salisbury
she she'll tell you that she she
represents the entire yep but also too
even if you live out in the county uh
unless you're going to never go into
Salsbury uh which is really not possible
if you're going to serve on a jury or or
go pull a permit or go pay your tax bill
bill uh this is going to impact you yeah
right um and rather than just say well
yes maybe it does seem
predetermined I think it's really
important we have seen when we have
we've spoken out against Parks or for
Parks or or
different types of government structure
budgeting it's really important that
people hear from you right yeah the more
public momentum on any issue whether
it's for something or against something
is going to have an impact because in
the end our elected officials are there
to represent us and by making your
concerns known they at least have an
awareness about what the mood of the
public Is On Any Given topic so will you
hope that you see come out of of of this
situation what what what what's more
information you want to have public
before the final vote gets taken what
are you looking for well personally as a
city resident in taxpayer I'd like a
better sense of what the actual
long-term costs are going to be on this
change to the density code because
reading over and it was it's easy to
miss because Mr uray really had to read
a lot of stuff that you know in some
ways could be a little bit Bland and
bureaucratic but that report's numbers
are important because it really lays out
what it will cost in terms of financial
aspects and the Personnel aspects to
have these new developments in the city
and one of the things that we constantly
talk about in in the city and and in the
county to a lesser extent is this idea
of affordable housing and nothing in the
current density change has anything
anything to do with affordable housing
the project itself is listed as luxury
housing and so when we have City
residents who are struggling to pay
their bills who can't find decent rental
or homes to buy it's an affordability
crisis as much as anything else and that
hasn't been part of the conversation um
there's been this very very tepid lip
service to well we'll just increase the
supply and things will sort themselves
out the housing market really doesn't
operate only on Market forces though it
never has and so if you are a city
resident like I am the big concerns that
a lot of us have is what is this project
going to actually do to the viability
and the affordability of those that
currently live here well you know we we
talked about we had Miss hos on last
week and she did she she stated very
plainly that more inventory would would
help Drive prices down and that may be
even have some effect in in a positive
way but one of the things that came out
of Mr Year's uh report from the city was
talking about the sewage capacity now
there's lift stations right outside the
central business district
that actually kind of lift the sewage up
so that it can flow downhill down to the
treatment plant this project would
actually put one of those two lift
stations at capacity MH now when you
when you then Max that out my question
would be what's the plan to increase
capacity for the next business
development right um and could you
explain a little bit about who who's
Molly or Holly Worthington and what is
their stake in this sure well miss
Worthington has been sort of one of the
principal organizers against the density
changes uh she's the principal owner of
Worthington reality down downtown in
Salsbury her her office operates out of
the old synagogue that's there on the
corner and she and other Merchants have
basically had real big concerns because
not only is this density change going to
have a huge effect on what remaining
foot traffic we have there but to the
employees and to the other residents who
already live downtown uh their concerns
about their access their parking she
mentioned uh at the city council meeting
yesterday uh which would be for those
watching it would be November 25th that
you know she has at least one resident
in in her building who is wheelchair
bound who is worried about access right
to actually getting to their apartment
because if these changes go through how
are they going to actually physically
access their home it because it's not
part of a bigger plan that it's
accessible by the public correct so I
think when you're taking whether
yourself or or as a city resident myself
as a County resident or Miss Worthington
as a business owner down there uh you
you're really just looking for hey what
is the entire plan and what will be our
contingencies of some of these
unintended consequences and that's the
thing that's troubling because the only
real contingency that was offered and it
was somewhat vague but uh at that
meeting for Planning and Zoning you had
an official representing the state say
that we're going to have access to a
half a million dollar Grant to sort of
help this this process the timing of
that announcement in that meeting was a
bit suspicious right because no one in
the public had been aware of that right
it seems sort of an odd place to mention
at the time that you're trying to sell
this plan uh but it also doesn't
necessarily mean much uh given what
we're facing with these actual
calculated or I should say comound
compounded costs you know half a million
dollar State Grant might help but if
we're going to be in the hole for
multiple millions of dollars that then
the city is on the hook for well and
again this is a promise for a a million
dollars from an entity that is $2
billion in the whole right this 2.7
billion well 2.7 but you know who's
What's 700 million between friends yeah
I've spoken about this at the County
Council meetings I I think the the
hardest pill to swallow is you don't
have the whole plan in place we don't
know exactly all of the infrastructure
cost it doesn't fit into our
comprehensive plan that we paid a lot
lot of money to have right and then on
top of that we really don't know where
the state stands with some of the
funding that they have given us
historically and it could come in
pulling back things like disparity Grant
yeah it also could come from new
unfunded mandates yep so as taxpayers in
this County in the city I really think
now is the time that it's if you don't
get involved now and ask just ask
questions then when the tax bill comes
due that won't be the right time to
start asking questions right it won't
because we've gotten to this point in
the city where we we we run now at a
structural deficit right because we have
given away certain city assets over the
last 10 to 12 years we have basically
given away or developed subsidy programs
that have given City Revenue away to a
small amount of people and if you are
quote unquote a regular homeowner uh or
a renter for that matter you're on the
hook because those costs get passed down
yeah we we've already seen attempts by a
county executive to bust the revenue cap
our our appointed delegate has stated
that that he's interested in in removing
the revenue cap yeah our state doesn't
know how much money they have or how
much more tax money they're going to
need and we're looking at again possible
tariffs at the federal level so you you
tell me how does that look for basic
cost of living so now would be the time
for people to get involved now will be
the time the first Monday of or first
Tuesday of December Y is County council
meeting that one Happ is to be at 6:00
p.m. uh I would I would suggest people
go to that and then the city council
meeting is Monday Monday December 9th de
6m as well yep absolutely well thanks
for joining us for this episode of open
Agenda we'll be back next week with
another new episode have a great
weekend oh they're going to love this
when it is
