You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our
host, Joe White.
>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host,
Joe White. In the studio with us right
now is Dr. Joe Venosa from Salsbury.
Thank you.
>> Thank you, sir.
>> Mr. Jim Atkins from Mardella. Thank you.
>> So, we we were at the December 2nd
meeting and in the work session, it it
it listed SWAT analysis. That's not
actually what we went through. We didn't
do a SWAT analysis. What we heard was a
presentation that we've heard before,
Jim, right?
>> Uh back in March, from the uh Lorenzo
Craropper, who's in charge of emergency
services and the fire chiefs association
about the results of their SWAT analysis
that they completed a year ago. Right.
>> Lorenzo Craropper, emergency services
director.
>> Tim Chrysler, deputy emergency services
director.
>> I'm Wayne Strawber. I chaired the task
force meetings.
John Tyler, uh, president of Wakcomo
County Fire Chiefs Association.
>> Billy White, vice president, County
Chiefs of Association, Chief of Shar,
>> together a presentation
going over a few different options in
regard to EMS. Um, right now the county
spends approximately roughly $7 million
on EMS. Overall, comes out to roughly
$500,000 per station uh with the 14
stations. So, uh, that's including the
city of Salbury where they expend
approximately $7 million overall for
EMS. There are some challenges for EMS
overall finding providers. Um, there's a
definite shortage of providers and
trying to retain them. And I will tell
you, I have not seen the salaries jump
for ALS providers like I've seen in the
last two years. All right. So here the
different concepts real is the one in
one
ALS chase vehicle and the standalone ALS
units.
>> Uh Joe, I want to bring in Mike
Goldberg. Now, Mike watched the
presentation on Pack 14, but when you
start hearing numbers, you know, an
extra 9 million here, 2 million there,
capital cost here is scary because I
mean, we've been spending a lot of money
on things like civic centers and we have
>> and now and now schools that are going
to need way more money than we thought
they would.
>> Yeah. But at the end of the day, I mean,
if you're having a heart attack in your
home, you need to have trust that
somebody's gonna come help you and and
that they're equipped with the knowledge
and the and the tools to to help you.
>> Y
>> Jim, I want you to stick around, too,
because there's some parts of this with
your extensive background with with the
Mardella Fire Department. I want you to
be able to explain some of the the the
terminology they were using. So, if
you'd stick around, I want to see just
how how well Mike could understand it
and how well, you know, the general
public could.
So stay with us. When we come back,
we're going to bring in Mike Goldberg
and we're going to talk emergency
services.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. In the
studio with us now is Mr. Mike Goldberg
from Delmare. Thank you.
>> Yes, sir.
>> Thanks for sticking around, Jim.
>> Y
>> So talking about the SWAT analysis
presentation that was given at the
county council meeting on December 2nd,
presented the findings from the SWAT
analysis they did last winter. They g
Yeah, they presented three options.
>> Okay. And
>> and Wayne Strawber who's a consultant
for the county, he was the chairman of
this committee and then they had the
fire chiefs association represented and
Lorenzo Craropper from the executive's
office. Correct. I think there are some
areas here that need to be very
explained very well to the public. One
Jim is you and I both understand an ALS
and a BLS when they say that. Yes. But
let's let's dive into that definition.
ALS is advanced life support, right?
>> Correct. Yes.
>> And this is a paramedic.
>> Correct. Yes.
>> Uh BLS is a basic life support and
that's like an EMT.
>> Yes.
>> Both require a lot of training, but a
paramedic is going to have further
training, medical style training, right?
>> Going to have further training and is
going to
be allowed to do medical procedures on
you in route to the hospital. I think
one one of the best explanations and I
heard this at the work session is an ALS
a paramedic can identify a heart attack
and an EMT or a BLS can suspect a heart
attack and that's a big difference
because they can
>> yes with an ALS and especially if you're
you're having a heart problem I mean
they will do a uh a 12 lead on you on
your heart which is transmitted from the
ambulance directly to a doctor in the
hospital. So instead of uh uh basic life
support where you get to the hospital
and then the hospital tries to find out
what is wrong with you with an ALS
advanced uh that information is at the
hospital the doctor has it before you
ever arrive and has set up and it's
prepared for what's getting ready to
come through the doors when you get
there.
>> So Mike, I I know you watched this
presentation on pack 14. uh the the
first option was a one in one is what
they call it and and that is adding one
ALS and one BLS to all 14 of the
stations in Wakcomo County or really
providing them the funding so that they
can go out and hire these these folks in
addition to what they already are
getting which is a half a million
dollars.
>> This is the ALS paramedic and BLS
staffing and to the existing
departments. uh utilizing this method,
you would uh approximately meet your
10-minute response time for about 90 to
95% of your goals. This is our exist
existing fire districts for the county.
If you'll notice, there's a lot of white
on that mat.
Those are the areas that we would have
we don't have that
10-minute or less response. A lot of
those areas, it may run up to 12, 15
minutes uh response. 46 paramedics, 46
EMT drivers,
>> and then a minimum of four shift
advisors.
There's [clears throat] your estimated
cost, what it would cost you annually
for salaries. That's not counting uh
upkeep or anything else. It's just
salaries.
>> Did were you able to understand that
first part?
>> It was a little bit tough. the you know
the presentation wasn't as cogent as it
could have been but yes I I I basically
understood that.
>> Yeah the Jim I mean we we watched the
the the the gentleman from the uh
chief's association they contradicted
some of the presentation on on the one
and oneonone about how how enthusiastic
the the the fire departments are to have
supervisors come in. Right. That's part
of the contention
>> is I'm hearing the one in one option,
which is what the county fire chiefs at
the time unanimously have voted for.
>> Um, but I'm hearing that all these 46
employees, well, really 92 are county
employees.
>> No, no, no, not on this option.
>> Okay. I did I mis I misread it. the
county would fund it, but they funding
would go to the
>> supervisors and
>> we're going to talk about three
different concepts. This first concept
that we've spoken to is just adding
additional funding to existing
processes. This is just here's more
money, go hire more people. That's all
we've talked about with this. Now, there
is some supervisory roles here. Um, and
you know, whether or not those are
county employees or those are
independent volunteer fire company
employees, uh, I think is a conversation
that needs to be had.
>> My question is, if you're just
increasing funding to do what you're
doing right now,
>> this is an option.
>> That's this is the option, the first one
you're talking about.
>> Yes.
>> Where does the supervisors come in? Why
why are we why are we hiring more
supervisors? I see heads shaking down
there. Can you answer that question or
or you had the same question I asked?
>> I had the same question.
>> Okay.
>> This was brought up during the SWAT
meetings when we um had those
>> last year and the same question was
going to be if they're going to be the
fire companies are going to be given the
money to pay these people with our our
employees. We oversee them. What role
are the supervisors going to
>> Yeah. Yes. to have county supervisors
come in. Each fire station has an EMS,
either an EMS captain or an EMS
supervisor in that in that fire
department where they they handle
things, make sure that everything's up
and running, that the reports are filed,
reports are accurate, all the they don't
need uh they don't want
uh somebody from the county to be
telling them how to do their business.
They know how to do their business.
They're very proficient at it and have
done it for a long time. Uh the the main
confusion I saw the other night was and
this was stated by Chief White of
Sharptown who has been very involved in
this from from the start that back in
March or April of this year the SWAT
analysis was presented to the council.
It was presented as a one on one in one,
one paramedic, one EMT. And the chief's
association
unanimously agreed with that decision
and thought that something
was going to move forward with it.
>> Then something being in the capital
improvement plan and in the in the oper
operating budget, right?
>> Yes. What I'm seeing here is not an
agreement between what you guys are
asking and what the fire departments are
are talking about doing. I I I don't
think so from our pers at least I can't
speak for Lorenzo. I can speak for
myself. All we've sought to do with this
presentation is provide the council with
what with the different options that are
available and the rough approximation of
those costs.
what the council chooses to do with this
information is what the council chooses
to do with that information.
>> Yeah, I understand.
>> And Mr. Hollow, this is the this is the
same thing we went over with you
gentlemen and ladies in March or April
after the SWAT study was completed. We
came in and had a work session at that
time and we were under the impression
that the one in one had been uh approved
or that's way it was going to go
proceeding forward. And when we got the
notification the week before last about
this, it was kind of a surprise to us
that we were having this meeting tonight
to talk about it because we thought, you
know, this is the way it was going. We
didn't know anything changed or or that,
you know, there need to be some sort of
update. You know, we were kind of in the
dark when we got notified about it.
>> And nothing nothing happened this year.
Yeah.
>> And we're getting ready uh in another
week to see the CIP for uh fiscal year
27. And uh from the CIP I saw at the
civic center a few weeks ago, there's
nothing in there again.
>> Yeah. So that was that was their
recommendation. And this plan adds a lot
of operating cost in addition to the 7
million the county is already spending
about $9 million more
to the operating cost of this one in
one. And that's saying they can find the
personnel. And you and I both doubt that
we can find enough personnel. You're
talking 46
uh ALS and 46 BLS at the minimum.
Correct.
>> Well, I believe that is exactly at the
minimum. I think I have not been able to
figure out that number. You know, there
needs to be a way
to train these individuals, get these
individuals trained and get them to stay
and work in this county.
>> They have to be paid the competitive
salary. They have to be brought up to
par with other fire departments or EMS
units, you know, in the area. Doesn't
sound like they're there. So, you know,
it's it's difficult enough to attract,
you know, people to this you particular
profession, but I think it's even harder
to retain them when they can get their
training here, work for a few years, and
go elsewhere where they're going to make
a lot more money. So, if you can't pay a
competitive wage in any business, you're
you're not going to keep employees.
Well, and you know, a lot of people will
tell you that, okay, maybe Anna Ronda PG
County is paying $8 or $10 an hour more
than Wakcomo.
And then the first response you'll get
from people is, well, who wants to drive
to PG County and go to work? But what
they don't realize and they don't
understand is is these paramedics work
24 on, 72 off. They work one day,
they're off three.
Well, driving to PG County to work is
not a hardship when you're only doing it
two days a week. Yeah. [clears throat]
>> But you're making a lot more money doing
it.
>> Well, then that leads us to the second
option that was presented. And again, as
as we stated earlier, the the chief's
association's already voted on that they
want the one. Yes.
>> But the second option was to have eight
EMS stations built in Wakcomo County.
>> Okay. This is another option is going
with an ALS chase unit concept
countywide.
And the biggest difference you'll see
here is you're talking about nine total
units and they will be strategically
placed throughout the county. Uh the
eight units and one as a roing
supervisor.
Projected annual cost uh is if you did
the dual medics would be $5.6 million.
uh not count your supervisors. Uh if you
did the single medics, this is about
$2.8 million plus approximately $400,000
for supervisors for salaries only. This
is a fully county ALSJ system.
The voluntary corporations will be doing
the transport.
And this idea is to leave their monies
that they're getting at present and ask
that they provide a guaranteed 24 hours
7 driver EMT for the transport unit. If
you're going to do this concept or look
at this concept
at all,
you would be taking on building these
chase unit stations.
That's how you get your response down to
approximately 8 minutes. They covered
the majority of the county and I have a
map here where they're proposing to
put these
>> similar to what Sussex County is
running.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> This isn't is this something you guys
are
is this something you all u recommend or
or you you would like to see happen or
do you just like the one in one?
I I know [clears throat]
we are I'm sorry we are pretty set on
the one and one. Um and and here's just
a scenario why I feel that way. As chief
of Powville number eight, I'm not
exactly sure what road or location that
one is on, but it is extremely common to
have two or three ALS calls going on at
a time. It's just that's that's light.
Say the unit from seven and eight are on
that arrest. I have to wait for number
six or number eight to come to my
district. How is that fair to my my
community?
>> Again, I point out the capital cost of
building stations.
>> Yeah.
>> So that you now once they're built that
kind of disappear, but you still have
the upkeep of those stations. So
>> there's some ongoing costs. There's a
lot that is going to go into this. An
average an average ambulance now, no
frrills ambulance is over $400,000 for a
brand new ambulance. Um, you know, and
now this plan would actually have
capital cost to build and outfit
stations. And you and I were talking
about this at the meeting. Uh, $400,000
for an ambulance gets you
>> gets you a chassis and a box.
>> A box. Yes. And it it does not get you
the equip the $100,000 or $150,000 worth
of equipment that you're going to have
to put inside that ambulance when you
get it.
>> Nor does it give you the office space
or, you know, that they're going to need
if they're outside of the existing, you
know, fire department buildings. That's
a lot of capital improvements there in
addition to a heck of a lot of operating
expenses.
>> And then you still have to maintain
those buildings. There's another
operational cost. And that still is
saying that we're going to fund the fire
departments at a half a million dollars
a year times 14.
>> I would just say this is this would be
in addition to the the current $9
million that we're already providing in
funding.
>> And you have to staff those stations and
we can't staff what we have now.
Exactly.
>> If we don't work very very hard
to figure that one out, uh, we're still
going to have the same issues that we
have right now in terms of response
times.
>> Are we going to build more and stamp
them?
>> No. It sounds like a dead end. And and
then and part of Mr. Craropper's
presentation was that they wanted the
fire departments to guarantee there' be
EMT transport.
>> Well, I think you're going to still run
into, like you said, staffing issues.
the interesting one and and to be honest
with you, I was I was kind of frustrated
because I felt like we were we had
rewound the clock. We we've seen this
and in the meantime we have faced so
many different other you know quote
unquote crisises in these in this county
that that have deflected our attention
to something important like this but
Councilman Holloway brought it up was
the the the chase units which the option
there is you still fund the fire
departments like you're doing but you're
adding one chase unit to the east side
and one chase unit to the west side. Did
you ever consider just buying one or
possibly two chase units and placing
them in the areas either with the
highest volume or the lowest response
time and just see how it would work for
a year or two?
>> Yeah, Joe, I I think I think
>> talked about that before, Wayne. I think
in solving this problem over time, um,
we're going to have to grow into it and
and I would suggest to you that a
realistic approach to this would be
something like you just said because we
can probably source the personnel that
we need. we can place equipment in the
areas that need the equipment the most
and we'll learn a lot from that
>> and we can afford to do that quickly. Uh
and we can begin to to cut down on the
response times in in those areas I call
deserts. I think that makes a lot of
sense and I think
>> that was already
>> you know these folks are the folks who
can give us guidance on where should we
place it. see that in the presentation
>> that was actually suggested Mr. way and
not
>> what we can't do is not do anything.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> So, we we have to begin
>> to move this ball down the road. These
folks are the eskers. You know, they can
tell us where these units ought to be
placed, but I think we need to get on
it. And and I think this capital
improvement cycle and budget cycle, we
really need to tackle this. And uh they
they they talked about Chief Tyler
talked specifically that they're kind of
doing this on the east side now where if
there's a ALS call out in Pittsville,
the the paramedic from Powville is
starting to head that way. They're
starting to do that coverage. One of the
things that
over the past six to eight months that
have kind of a a shift on the east side
is if if my paramedic sitting in
Powville and there's a critical type
call, they're going to start that. They
already know as chief, they have
permission to whether you call it
bidding up, jump the call, they're just
going to get on the radio and say, "I'm
available. do you want me to respond to
whatever other unit that is? And and
ultimately that's the bottom line.
That's the way it should be, which is
great to see. I mean, that's the
teamwork you want to see. But then we
could add to this just two two
independent chase units that would help
fill in the gaps from the city of
Salsbury as well as support. I think one
thing a lot of folks miss and I see this
over at Parsonsburg is there's a lot of
calls that are accidents on Route 50 and
that could be on the west side or the
east side.
>> That that's more than one ambulance
needed. I mean most of the time.
>> Oh yes. You know
>> um I think this is it's kind of a
combination of of option one and option
three which is the chase units in
addition to the one and one and in a
phased in approach. And it's interesting
like like we said, it seems like we're
back in March. We've we've wasted seven
or eight months and we don't expect that
we're going to see this in the CIP for
the fiscal year 27. Right.
>> Right. Right.
>> Well, I'd like to bring Dr. Venosa back
in and I want to talk to him a little
bit about because he was at the meeting
as well from a from a future projection
standpoint what should be the next steps
that we should follow. Okay.
>> Yes, sir.
>> All right. So, stay with us. When we
come back, Dr. Jovenos will be back in
and we're going to talk about where we
think the future of EMS service and
Wakcomo County should go.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. Dr. Joe,
thanks for joining us again.
>> Thank you,
>> Jim. Thanks for sticking around.
>> So, we had a chance to to see the
presentation and we had a chance with
Mike Goldberg to discuss it. Uh Joe, I I
know I know you did not grow up in the
fire department like Jim and I did, but
as a as a taxpayer, as a citizen, does
it make sense to you that does it does
it feel like we're moving towards a
solution that we could be proud of in
say 20 years?
>> I'd like to say yes, but I don't see a
lot of
concretized plans yet. I see, as you've
indicated, I see concepts of three plans
and a sense of what we can do based on
some of the past successes, but I got to
tell you that presentation didn't really
reassure me much.
>> Well, to me, the frustrating part is I
feel like we've wasted 8 months. Well,
this is
>> and in that time we've had crisises
about landfills and civic centers and
all this kind of stuff. And as you said,
we've kicked the can down the road to
the point where, you know, now we're
going to wait on a presentation for the
CIP. And again, even if she puts in some
of this stuff, it's going to take a lot
of time and a lot more money to get
where we need to be.
>> We should have been having
conversations. And and Joe brought up
about the pay, and you and I disagree
with part of what was in the
presentation about the pay. I mean, um,
Mr. So Lorenzo Craropper's presentation
showed ALS or paramedics and BLS EMTs
making more money than what you have
discovered uh is the starting rate on
most of the fire departments, right?
>> Yes. Well, and and the information I
have came out of the SWAT analysis
report. Okay.
>> So I mean, you know, it's it's their
numbers that I'm I'm sitting here
looking at.
>> Okay. So for us and for me and and the
audience, let me just clarify this just
a couple of sort of points. for a
full-time EMT hourly. Uh, and I'll just
pick one. Fruit lint. $18 an hour.
>> Yes.
>> $18 an hour.
>> That's less than Subway.
>> That That's basically what you get paid
at Dunkin Donuts or Subway starting
rate. That's what our full-time entire
company make according to the
>> Well, and and let's talk about the
education requirements.
>> And I'm getting there. I'm getting
there. And again, just for comparative
analysis, even the Salsbury Fire
Department, right, which pays about
$2049, which I think is remarkably low,
too. I think you're beginning to see why
there's some shortages, you know,
systematically. But to your point about
the education, how many hours does it
take for somebody who wants to kind of
be, you know, and serve the community to
do these important jobs, whether they're
a full-time EMT, full-time paramedic, or
even part-time? What What are the
educational hours and costs? Well, if
you look at a par I'm sorry, an EMT and
let's stay on the EMTs. Uh you're
looking at depending on who gives the
class, whether it's done
at Warwick or the Mer Maryland State
does it, you're looking at 185 to 210
hours to get to get an EMT
certification. And these classes
for a person who has a job are at night
or on weekends. A lot of them are have
at least one day a month mandatory
>> on on a weekend. And if you're a high
school student
who has an interest in going into this
profession, you have to find a class and
a very good example of that is Miffrey.
And you know
>> what what is Miffrey?
>> Miffrey is the Maryland Fire and Rescue
Institute which is in charge of all the
training for the state of Maryland.
Miffrey and
Princess Anne have partnered up with a
program. Well, they will pay $15 an hour
for someone who is interested in
pursuing the fire service EMT
profession. So, you get paid $15 an hour
to attend this class, which is a start,
which is good. Uh [clears throat] my
understanding from talking to people,
the biggest problem is juniors and
seniors in high school are the people
who are interested in this program and
they can't go
>> but the hours are not conducive to them
to be able to go. Right?
>> I mean once you get to the EMT level,
you have a uh you have a requirement of
approximately 6 months before you can
even apply to become a paramedic. And
then when you uh are accepted to a
paramedic school uh which Warwick does
have and uh Miffrey has, it's 1,500
hours to get that to get that
certification and that license to be a
paramedic at a cost of approximately 65
to $6,600.
>> That's got to be part of the strategic
planning. So you do a SWAT analysis as
part of a strategic plan. This is
something in my business career I have
lots of experience with. SWAT analysis
is a tool. It's strengths, weaknesses,
opportunities, and threats. We've
identified some strengths, some threats,
some opportunities, and some weaknesses.
That's great. A lot of weakness, a lot
of weaknesses, a lot of weaknesses. But
you the the other side of having a
strategic plan is what are you going to
do to go forward? And my point is back
in March, we were the the jumping off
point. And if you remember, the county
executive uh was very boastful at the
time that she was going to support the
one in one.
>> The one in one would put one ALS and one
BLS in every of the 14 fire departments
at county expense. So we already spent 7
million. This is an additional 9
million. And I think that's on the low
end. So you're talking a $16 million
investment. If you're going to make that
high of an investment, you would want a
strategic plan.
>> You have you'd have to people in the
buildings. Well, you need people in the
buildings, but how do you get the
juniors and seniors in high school who
can funnel in to take the class?
>> Look, as from where I'm sitting, and
again, I I don't think anybody can
dispute this. It seems that not only uh
are there impediments for people that
want to get involved in this profession,
especially on on the younger end. This
is actually dis this is discou this is
almost going out of the way to
intentionally discourage people from
eventually getting into these jobs that
we need.
>> Well, here's the point. It we're we're
turning the corner for the fiscal year
27. I mean, at the next county council
meeting on on December 16th, the county
executive is presenting her capital
improvement plan. If this is not part of
that, if this is not leading towards the
budget that will be submitted in April
for fiscal year 27, we've wasted another
year. We've also wasted the time of a
lot of volunteers, the chief's
association to meet to do a SWAT
analysis. I think eventually government
folks get tired of government asking
them to to volunteer their time to not
further the discussion. Uh
>> especially when it's life and death.
Well, and I think the comment was made
and I I don't think it was made. I know
it was made uh Tuesday night by by Chief
White of Sharptown. Uh they thought all
this was settled and taken care of back
in March and April
>> and was surprised a week or two ago when
they got a phone call about having a
SWAT analysis meeting. Thought this was
all done, put to bed, and this is where
we're going. Well,
>> let's let's hope that our elected
officials, all of them, county council
and the county executive, at least give
us some answers. though. Thank you both.
Appreciate it. Thanks for watching this
episode of Open Agenda. We'll be back
later this week with another new
episode.
What other entity out there in public
safety is getting up at 6:00 in the
morning to do breakfastes and
fundraisers?
