Open Agenda TV S2 E2: Salisbury Density Increase with Bob Taylor
Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
you're watching open Agenda here's our
host Joe
White welcome to open Agenda I'm your
host Joe White in the studio with me
today is Dr Joe venosa thanks for coming
out Joe thanks Joe so uh you know we've
had some delays in the in the last week
with the snow uh the city council
meeting has actually been pushed back to
January 9th yeah we really won't have
the results of all those public hearings
till next week but before we even get
into that I want to talk about the city
council meeting on Monday the 13th right
yeah yeah because we're getting snowed
regardless yes it it does feel like it
doesn't it um so look this is going to
be the second reading of the text
Amendment for to change the zoning
density in the downtown business
district from 40 units per acre to 80 uh
this is not a new subject this is this
started uh about two years ago with with
an appeal to to get an amend an
exception the exception was thrown out
even by a judge M
um but but the public voice has really
does not seem to be resonating with the
elected leaders is that would you say
that's accurate I would say the public
voice is not only being uh not
registering but it's being suppressed in
many ways well how how how do you say
well one of the things that's most
concerning apart from the fact that
there are various elected officials that
have what many people would feel are
conflicts of interests regarding some of
these particular pieces of legislation
or amendments is the fact that even the
very basic ability of citizens to
participate in their local city
government uh has been increasingly
marginalized in well well let's talk
about these conflicts because we we
documented the with the Planning and
Zoning that their their their second
meeting was back in November they passed
at 6 to one yeah long meeting but as
soon as all the hearing was over they
didn't have discussion they went right
into yeah to their preset script it was
it was a preset yeah and and we we
talked about how four of those members
are either lifetime members of the
greater Salsbury committee Uh current
members and so is the developer asking
for this text Amendment correct and in
many cases personal friends which also
adds to it and in case of one member I
believe works for one of the developers
who may benefit from well well two two
of the seats on Planning and Zoning uh
one is occupied by city or the County
Council uh Joe Holloway he was there
he's the one person who voted against it
um and but the other one is is City uh
city council president desan dowy and
he's he's the one you're referring to I
mean he works for Green Street housing
Green Street housing right and they
stand to benefit from this project
correct correct that's my understanding
um and it's been asked for for folks to
recuse themselves right yeah why do you
think this is I mean what where's the
disconnect here are we asking too much I
think we're in an era where where
politicians particularly those that
maybe have ambition or have their sites
set on greater or bigger or higher
office or maybe um just people that have
never really dealt with Community
concerns like this either generally
don't care um or are looking at it
as something in which they hope most of
the public will just ignore or forget
about well you know we just did get the
minutes released from the from the Clos
session from from June 30th of uh 2023
yeah and those me minutes one it was
deemed by the state of Maryland that was
an illegal meeting yeah should have been
open meeting uh still parts of those
minutes are redacted uh we're going to
talk a little later on in the show with
with Bob Taylor about the specifics
there but that that meeting really was
the the the doorway the gateway to
selling these parking lots right yeah
and it's interesting how there are a lot
of little bits of that uh uh transcript
of that meeting that the public now
finally has uh that really do I would
say reveal ultimately what this project
is actually about I mean because you get
to see sort of you you you you get to
peek behind the curtain as it were um if
you actually are able to read that PDF
of that meeting transcript so if people
still do want to participate and it's
still important that they do the one key
is they need to register online by noon
on Monday or in person by six Sharp
right correct right so again in previous
errors as in last month and prior uh any
citizen could show up and write out a
form and participate in the public
comments for up to three minutes now
that's four minutes actually I'm sorry
four minutes four minutes and because
the city council was meeting uh four
times a month a citizen actually
theoretically could speak for 16 minutes
per month on certain topics uh now that
the council is cutting its work down by
half which will make for more hectic and
um busy meetings uh and also cutting
down the public comment time what that
means is the average citizen goes from
having 16 minutes uh for their ability
to articulate a concern or point of view
or in in some cases ask a question from
60 Minutes all the way down to 4 so
75% of the time that the public could
have to provide public comments has now
been taken away plus plus Zoom right
plus the zoom option has now been taken
away although only for regular people uh
it's my understanding that staff and
elected officials can still use zoom uh
but not regular folks to uh make
comments now the the excuse that we've
heard at least from some officials
through social media recently is that
there were several Zoom bombing uh in
incidents where there were sort of um
offensive or sexual images posted on the
zoom call um now it's important to note
that hundreds of M municipalities across
the the country conduct Zoom meetings
and are able to screen out these um
kinds of things uh and it and it was
never initially the reason given meaning
this has only come out now with the city
council on the defense as they've been
trying to limit it as they've been
trying to limit so so putting aside that
though even if you agree that the zoom
thing or the zoom limits would maybe
take away certain possible um intrusions
it still is limiting the physical
ability of citizens to to give comment
and because of the fact that now you
have to have access to a computer by
noon of the day of the meeting to submit
your comments in advance and you can't
physically hand in comments after 6:
p.m. the day of the meeting what it
means is if somebody has a physical
disability somebody has an injury
somebody can't find parking let's say
that's convenient and they show up to a
meeting at 601 or 6:02 uh they
theoretically would be prevented from
engaging in public comments by these new
rules Joe how ironic they may not be
able to find parking you know the jokes
themselves sometimes right so uh big big
meeting for the city council on the 13th
Monday uh the County Council is going to
have a a special session on Tuesday the
14th 3 pm in the same room 301 in the
county or the government office building
but between us being here and that
meeting there will be the regular
meeting that got pushed back because of
the
snowstorm uh look there's there's
probably more in this than we could even
cover if we if we had an hour but B
bottom line is you can there's nine
public hearings at the County council
meeting that's Thursday the
9th um bring your popcorn it it shows
you the priorities of of the direction
of our County leader especially the
county executive yeah most of these
revolve around uh liquor licenses and
and that sort of thing and and this goes
against exactly what was presented to us
a year ago with task force from greater
Salsbury committee the uh Chamber of
Commerce and B and then even our
delegation coming back from Annapolis
absolutely uh Carl Anderson could not
have said it any better oh yeah open the
door you have to give for through you
have to give the former delegate
anderton a lot of credit he definitely
speaks his mind well when we come back
next week uh we want to take some time
to talk to Bob Taylor today we'll give
updates on just really the direction
there's so much going on it would be it
would just be impossible to speculate
all the different directions could
uh one other point that they're going to
discuss tonight is whether or not to
delay approving the CIP the capital
Improvement uh plan until they have more
budget
information some from the state budget
deficit issues we just saw Governor
Moore come out with a decree saying hey
look the you know there like the hurt is
actually really coming it's about A2
billion dollar cut that he wants to
initiate or find and that's just the
first step that's just the first step
and then also too we don't have the
final results from the fiscal year 2024
yet the executive's finance office is
still late getting those back to us
we're waiting yeah all right so so
obviously stay tuned for next week right
definitely all right so when we come
back uh we're gonna have Bob Taylor in
the studio to discuss the density text
Amendment that's going to happen at the
Salsbury city council meeting on January
13th and also the more wide- ranging
impacts that this change could have out
of just this one project so stay with us
and we'll be right
back welcome to open Agenda I'm your
host Joe White in the studio with me
today is retired attorney Bob Taylor
from County thanks for coming out so uh
just a little background you've been on
the show before but uh you've lived in
the county for over 50 years so I moved
here in uh
701 okay yeah so you know a little
something about W coma County right oh
yeah so uh you know this coming Monday
January 13th at 6 o'clock let me let me
interrupt for a second I'm going to take
my hat off 7:30 tonight let the game
begin and the best team win it's Notre
Dame okay you're even going to put it
all right all right well we're going to
hold you to that we're going to have you
back on next week to go over the
highlights right well uh talking about
highlights uh the the meeting City
Council on January 13th is um is is
likely to be a very important meeting uh
it's the second reading for the increase
of density of the the amendment to the
uh to the to the code right well yeah
what it is it would double the density
from 40 units per acre to 80 for
residential development in the downtown
Salsbury What's called the central
business district okay um and uh it may
not be the second reading I'm not sure
that they will do it that night it is
going to be the public hearing okay at
least it's been advertised I guess they
could always change that but the agenda
is not out yet so I can't swear to it
okay but you know I'd be pretty pretty
sure that that's what's going to happen
well let's let's let's tell tell a
little bit of the story how we're
getting to where this is the second
reading there was a a Planning and
Zoning meeting in November uh you you
were at well let's even go a little
further back than that okay um the the
group that wants to build the 220
Apartments now these would be on three
parking lots that are between Division
Street essentially and the river okay um
the real big parking lot behind the
library that's one and then there's two
others um these uh Lots uh and the
density right now doesn't support 220
units okay so they would have to have it
increased last year in
2023 they applied for what's called a
special exception to increase it to the
amount they need which is 77 units per
acre okay uh and incidentally all these
figures are without any part parking on
the site on the where the apartments
would be for the tenants you don't have
to have that anymore in downtown
Salsbury yeah it's not part of the not
part of so they applied for it they went
before the board of appeals and the
board of appeals turned down the special
exception okay now after that a group
that I was part of went to court and
challenged they they actually appe
appealed the board of appeals ruling the
developer did yeah we we uh then
appeared in the court case and ask that
it be thrown out because under Maryland
zoning law you have two types of law in
Maryland for zoning one's State one's
local and under the state law which
trumps the local law Trump um the uh you
can't do uh density increase by special
exception and and that's what the Court
ruled yeah so so now they're back
essentially trying to come in the back
door and say well let's just let's just
change the density let's just up it to
what we need yeah uh they can do that
and the city council can do that they
are allowed to do that and that's what
the hearing will be about on Monday
night but this new process the one that
started after they lost the appeal did
start with Planning and Zoning right oh
yes they have to when you file for a
what's called a text change you want to
change something in the zoning code it
has to go to the Planning and Zoning
commission for a recommendation and
we've we've talked many times with
different guests on the show Randy
Taylor Joe Holloway Planning and Zoning
is one of the
is really the only committee that is
shared with the city and the county is
that well I'm not sure it's the only one
but in terms of zoning it is yeah uh
because each jurisdiction the county and
the city have separate Boards of appeal
okay we've had this combined Planning
and Zoning commission for many many
decades okay uh we are as far as I know
it's the only uh location in Maryland
where a county and the city have a
combined Planning and Zoning Commission
okay um I may be incorrect on that but I
mean I'm not aware of any others but you
were at the November Planning and Zoning
meeting they I was both there in October
and November they had two hearings so
did you did you speak out against the
the text Amendment yeah I did I mean you
you you we were limited in time uh but I
did speak as a lot of other people did
too yeah so uh I thought one of the
curious things coming out of that
Planning and Zoning meeting is they went
right in from public hearing I mean the
the DI report from the staff actually
spoke against this text Amendment they
had the public hearing and and outside
of people who ran into the circles of
the developer there was a lot of folks
who were against it but they went right
into a resolution is that did that St
well I put it this way there was no what
I would call substantial discussion
among the members of any points that
were later put into a resol a resolution
or a motion I guess it was to make a
recommendation this was read
was prescripted was read off by the
chairman and then they just voted for it
and one one person voted against it it
was the County council member Joe
Holloway of the commission and at that
meeting he asked for that vote to
actually just be delayed so they could
kind of process this information he
didn't but another member said something
like we've had a lot of information
presented and we ought to take this
under consideration and come back and I
would assume he met at a later day and
but they didn't they went ahead they
went right ahead decided it yeah and it
seems like the city council who's had it
since uh their first December meeting is
kind of rolling through this at at a
pretty pretty fast rate wouldn't you say
yeah I think they're going as fast as
they can that's right yeah I would
assume so so they had to do a first
reading in December which they did and
and and that was voted four to one to
move it on to a second reading right so
this public hearing is prior to that
second reading yeah under the state law
you have to have a public hearing and it
has to be adver IED in a certain way
okay and that's why we're at the end of
that advertising and hearing process so
is is it is is it at this meeting uh
that that the rules are going to change
for how long you can speak at a public
hearing kind of Is this different
subject now yeah but but is that is that
going to well my understanding is that I
and as far as I know this has just been
authorized by the president of the
council deshaan Dy uh and I don't think
it's gone before the entire Council the
county Charter pardon me the city
Charter says that the council makes its
rules not the county count City
council's president okay so as far as I
know this is essentially I'm I'm
guessing an edict well um well then I I
do want to ask you more questions about
that later in the show but let's
continue on with with this with this
part so why is it why is this text
Amendment important I mean how is this
going to impact the average citizen well
the difference between what they wanted
originally when they went before the
board of appeals was it would have only
applied to their property the three lots
I mentioned okay what they're doing now
is they're changing the requirement for
the entire zoning District the central
business district which includes what
everybody would consider I think
downtown Salsbury including some
property over along Carol Street the old
Daily Times property that the hospital
now owns and plans to develop as I
understand it for residential uh use for
the hospital um and some other property
too that's along Riverside Drive yeah uh
coming out of that culde act so this
doesn't just impact these these parking
lots it actually impacts the whole
Central business district yeah pardon me
I said culdesac I meant roundabout that
that is there now on Carol Street yeah
but I mean okay I live out in the
country my coma County I'm a County
resident not a city resident why do I
care I mean what difference does it make
to me well I think what's going going to
happen what you're having here and we
didn't State this earlier the city has
sold almost all of the open parking lots
in downtown Salsbury okay not just these
three that we've been talking about here
but also Lot 10 which is where the flea
market used to be held okay lot 16 which
is along one of the prongs of the river
uh and so all of that parking is going
to disappear as these lots are
developed and the development of it will
increase the parking demand just for
those locations yeah but it will
eliminate the parking that's there now
that they need and it's not a
requirement that they put it back as and
there's no requirement at all now I
understand one of them does plan to have
some on-site parking um and but it the
long and short of it is there's just not
enough parking downtown there won't be
if this goes through like this okay well
I I I want to ask you some more
questions about that two-minute l and
and some other close session meeting
stuff that recently come out uh would
you stick around another segment because
I want to dive into this further and I
also want to make sure everybody
understands how how and when their voice
could be heard sure sure enough yeah so
when we come back we're going to ask Bob
Taylor a little bit more about the the
legal workings of just what what is next
in this property or this density
Amendment and how anyone out there can
get their their voice out there so stay
with us and we'll be right
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status report this is Mike Goldberg for
open Agenda back to you
Joe welcome back to open Agenda I'm your
host Joe White in the studio with me for
another segments Bob Taylor thank you
for staying second round so we in the
first segment we talked about the the
January 13th meeting for the Salsbury
city council the second reading for the
density increase uh up to 80 units per
acre um
what I want to talk to you about is you
know there's a long history here uh and
it began with selling the parking lots
to the to the same developers looking to
develop these parking lots is that is
that cor well when you say the same
developers there are actually several
different ones okay and at least in
terms of the three lots that the
apartments the 220 apartments are
proposed for there is quite a history of
that it goes back to
2015 okay there was originally a deal
with a company called Dev Recco LLC for
just two of those lots okay um long
story that was supposed to go to
settlement after they got their building
permit um they never applied as far as I
know they never applied for a building
permit they never applied for the zoning
approvals they needed and that just sat
sat there okay um so what they did in
2023 last year in the summer they
approved an amendment of that original
contract of sale to a different group
Salsbury Town Center Apartments LLC and
they threw in another parking lot which
happens to be parking lot 15 that's the
one that is down by the um Opportunity
Shop okay that's run by the U one of the
churches uh the old synagogue building
it's a lot of perhaps 4050 cars and very
very essential for those businesses
right in that area um see that's why
there's so much concern with with some
of the business owners down on that side
that's right for for some of them um and
now we have even more Apartments 220 is
is more than what I think would would
have been there originally I forget what
the number was under the 200 2015
agreement so just recently uh the we we
just were able to receive the minutes
from a closed session from June 30th
2023 I think this is maybe the meeting
you're you're you're discussing that's
right so that was initially a close
session meeting right yes they had a
work session that essentially went into
a closed meeting okay and those minutes
from that meeting have been released
just within the last week or so they're
redacted in other words that means
certain parts have been eliminated
blacked out so you can't read them the
parts that have been blacked out it
appears are comments that were made by
the attorney again it was this attorney
Reena Patel acting as a special counsel
for the city at that meeting um it waso
the meeting was closed to discuss
matters with Council and to discuss the
contract the the changing the contract
over and throwing in lot 15 to this new
deal but this was later found to be this
should have been an open meeting this
violated the open meetings act it wasn't
a violation in terms of why they closed
it it was a violation in terms of some
things that were done after they closed
it okay and again a group that I was a
part of filed a complaint with the open
meetings compliance board okay and
that's what the compliance board ruled
now how how should it have gone they've
gone into Clos session then come back
out back into s did yeah they went back
out into a work session and decided to
move it on to their regular meeting
agenda to actually do approve the
contract of sale that regular meeting to
to do that was held minutes after the
work session ended so there was no in in
between time for anybody in the public
other than the few people who happen
actually more than few it's about two
dozen who happened to be at the meeting
to say anything so why is this so
significant why I mean obviously you
have minutes now but this deal is
already done correct yeah it's it's a
done deal and I think for that reason
and I've I've sent an email to the
council saying why can't we get what the
attorney said yeah I mean what's the
reason nobody's suing the city uh you've
closed the contract you've deeded the
property to this new group this Salsbury
Town Center
LLC uh so why shouldn't we have this um
but you know it it seems I mean it's
been over a year just to get the
redacted minutes these were asked for
back in the fall of last year 2023 over
a year ago yeah so so you really had to
fight hard to get this information to
get the transparency fortunately
somebody filed another
uh request and they they gave these uh
redacted minutes um to us so so we're in
a situation now where I
mean this is this is this process is
definitely rolling through at the at a
break neck speed through the city
government through the planing zoning
but there's there's a lot of controversy
there's a lot of of worry about it why
do you feel like there's so much
controversy but yet we're also moving to
to to having deals done behind closed
doors to having uh public hearing time
really cut down greatly at these City
Council meetings what's the rush why why
are they doing this so quickly well I
mean other than the obvious that you
know they they talk that we like to have
transparency gee we like to have people
come to the meetings and tell us things
but oh by the way now now you only have
two minutes yeah you know and and and
you don't get to talk too minutes for
each topic you get to that's all you get
period and on top of everything else one
thing we haven't mentioned is that
between the time they approved the
sale uh in 2023 in June of 2023 roughly
a year and a half ago we've now had the
college has announced the public
Performing Arts Center down where where
the existing library is downtown which
is we don't know the exact number I've
heard the a, mentioned a thousand seat
Auditorium uh obviously a very big
building it's to be used for classes
other things besides just performances
so that's to go where the library is the
library is moving out to the old Ward
Foundation Building but again a process
that's happened very quickly this is
yeah that's right this whole project
that project is not on the current uh
Capital Improvement plan for the county
but yet they've moved forward with with
moving that out well but bear in mind
the the uh changing the old library over
to the Performing Art Center which I
assume would just be demolishing it and
building a new building that's not the
county that's the state doing that yeah
that's the college but the county is the
one who is the the county would be doing
the new library location at the ward
foundation and they have appr
appropriated two three months ago uh I
think it was
$330,000 to do the initial planning the
architectural and Engineering planning
for that yeah so that's on a you know
maybe not FastTrack but it's certainly
not being slow walked definitely so so
given this process if if this does pass
a second reading on Monday uh there's a
difference between it passing say 4:1
versus 3-2 is that is that accurate well
if they get three votes it passes yes uh
so it can either be can be five four or
three yes any of those numbers would
pass it but if it does seem to pass 4 to
one and it's very unlikely to pass 5 to
zero yeah then that would in essence
kind of kind of veto proof it from Randy
Taylor although he could still veto not
necessarily because sometimes people who
vote for something uh if it's vetoed
then do not vote to override The veto
it's not cast in stone but I mean it it
is an indication yeah yeah so uh if if
it does pass whether it passes 3 to2 or
four to one and it and whether it gets
veto or overridden or not vetoed at all
once this passes this is going to be the
new
the new planing zoning text right yeah
and it would apply to the entire
downtown area uh for exam and just to
give you some other examples the um
Health Department building that's in the
old um JC Penney's property on Main
Street U next to the parking garage that
that building the county is going to be
leaving there going out to the Verizon
building on Route 50 in a couple in a
year or so uh so that's going to open I
mean there a lot of buildings that could
open up for either more Apartments more
retail more whatever but probably not
more parking yeah well they won't have
any parking and they don't yeah they're
not not required to have any parking so
what do you think the the the business
owners downtown who have come out and
said they're very concerned about this
what is what is likely their next move
because you said when when the the the
peel happened before a group of you got
behind it and really fought it is that I
mean they have several alternatives Gren
and Barrett yeah head for the hills okay
you know I mean for example Coon's
Jewelers I don't think Coon's Jewelers
from what I've heard is not at all
interested in coming back no matter what
happens down my my guess is just common
sense tells me and I had an office
downtown there for over 40 years that I
would be thinking about moving elsewhere
because they had to have clients to come
to the office well you know we've heard
a few businesses who have decided to
relocate from downtown just since the
unity Square Unity plet it was built
because of the construction and and the
taking up a parking there this would
this would be taken out parking on a on
a whole another grand scheme this would
this would really limit it a massive and
and yes we may have a parking garage and
we may have another one but at least in
an area like this a lot of people don't
abide parking garages for various
reasons I parked in one because that's
where the permits were um and um but
after I stopped my office there when I
went downtown I didn't use the parking
garage until very recently until they
closed the other some of those open Lots
well and and we've mentioned it before
but for for someone who living out in
the county who's maybe not thinking this
is going to impact them dayto day it
still does impact you if you need to go
down for jury duty or if you need to go
into say you want to go to a County
council meeting and and and make your
voice heard there uh this is really
going to limit the available space that
we have to park downtown right oh for
sure and and if there is any kind of
commercial or residential uh pardon me
retail or restaurant renovation
Rejuvenation downtown that's going to
add for parking yeah so essentially to
to me it looks like we're strangling
Salsbury yeah is what's happening we
could possibly see a stunt in that other
growth if there is if if customers just
can't even get down there I mean I grew
up as a kid not far from Glenn Bernie
now this is in the 50s I'm showing my
age Glenn Bernie was nice little town
and then the developers hit it yeah and
now look at Glenn Bernie yeah I mean
don't drive up and look at it it's not
worth the drive that's probably not the
aspiration we should have here in
Salsbury but I see something like that
happening here well U thanks for coming
in today I I'm really hoping that people
heed your your your voice and go out and
make their voice heard uh if they want
to do comments for the January 13th
meeting they have to Reg register online
by noon on Monday correct yeah that's
the edict yeah they either have to
register online by Monday uh noon or you
can come to the meeting in which is
going to be in the evening starting at 6
but if you don't get there by 6 you
can't comment and then you get you have
to yeah and regard regardless of which
way you do it you get two minutes well
thanks for coming in talking about with
us today uh and hopefully people will
register go make their voice heard and
uh thank you get you to come back in in
a little while and give us an update on
where we're at sounds good all right
thank you for watching this episode of
open Agenda we'll be back next week with
another new episode
