You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our
host, Joe White.
>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host,
Joe White. In the studio with me today
is Dr. Joe Venosa from Salsbury, Mr.
Michael Langford from Salsbury. Thank
you. Yeah,
>> beautiful weather out there, right?
>> Perfect to go back to school with.
>> So, on Facebook, you've been seeing a
lot of folks uh take pictures of the
sunsets and the weather and being
outside.
>> All calm, placid, non-confrontational
things. Yeah. Uh but I I think I think
we're also starting to see uh as you
always do with social media, this other
complex underlying that wants to seem
really really like it's uh put out there
for public display. Don't you think,
Michael?
>> Yeah, I think it's always important to
think about uh where people are coming
from, what what they want. You know,
it's not always what people say on the
surface. And I think that um that's
where a lot of the conflict lies is that
people want different things. They have
different agendas, if you will. We're
going to bring in Trish Melvin. Known
Trish for over a year. And one of the
things I I found fascinating about her
talking to her, she has uh she's
unplugged from Facebook and uh probably
that's probably helped her. I'm going to
ask her, you know, I want to see what
she thinks. Maybe she misses it.
>> My experience is like people tend to
have a more novel or unique uh viewpoint
that's actually original because they're
not so much in that echo chamber, you
know, effect.
>> Yeah. So Joe, we're going to talk a
little bit more about 287G as well.
Yeah. Um I know that this is a concern
for a large parts of the the community.
Uh we have we have asked folks from the
sheriff to be on the show, they've
politely declined.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think I think you know
if anyone does watch it in that realm I
I I do think people in law enforcement
and frankly any other aspect of Kenny
government really owe to the citizens at
least to if not coming on this or any
other show is not going to happen. Okay.
But I think better articulation of the
perspective needs to be done. Well, I
want to I want to talk to Trish a little
bit more about just how she feels about
some of these things because when she
has gone to county council meetings, she
has been very articulate with her
comments. So,
>> absolutely. And also, a lot of people
still don't know the specifics about
what 287g actually even is.
>> Yeah, I I do know she's done a lot of
research. So, Michael, if you would,
will you stick around because after we
talk to Trish, I'd like to get back
together and and just see just how we
feel about both the social media aspect
and 287g.
>> Absolutely. I'd love to. All right, so
stay with us. When we come back, we're
going to bring in Trish Melvin and talk
social media.
Welcome back to Open Agenda. We want to
talk about social media, its role in
everyday life, and even how it affects
politics. Talk about that. I brought in
Miss Trish Melvin from Wakcomo County.
Dr. Joea, thanks for sticking around.
>> Thank you, sir.
>> So Trish, uh, you you've lived in
Wakcomo County a while now. We've we've
seen you at some
>> 40 years.
Uh and you've been at the some of the
county council meetings.
>> I have.
>> And um you know, you you you get a
chance to really see what folks are like
without the cameras rolling and then
later on. But specifically, we want to
talk about social media and its
implications cuz that's a very cur
choreographed curated version of anyone
even someone's vacation. Right.
>> Exactly. So, what have you found to be
some of the major challenges when it
comes to deciding whether or not
something on social media is the true
version or like a distorted version?
>> You know, I think that you should doubt
everything you see online unless it
comes from a reputable source.
>> Okay.
>> Um journalistic source. Um I actually
cancelled my Facebook account. I am not
on Facebook. I think I'm a lot happier.
>> I could tell. Yeah. um
>> just because I think it it it's not good
mentally for a lot of for certain
people.
>> Um it can it break one's brain. I don't
think it does much good for our for our
country or our society.
>> Um
>> yeah.
>> So when you when you say that uh are you
you know let's talk it from a from an
instance of you know someone's putting
up school pictures and that sort of
thing but then behind the scenes it's
it's very chaotic.
uh when you're trying to decide what is
a reputable source, how do you how do
you cut through it? I mean, you said you
canceled Facebook, but I'm sure you're
still involved in other public aspects.
>> You know, I tend not to believe
anything. Okay.
>> Um unless I can uh find a couple sources
that are reporting the same information.
Um I subscribe to the New York Times. Um
The Guardian is reputable also. Um,
so I I believe those sources. Um,
you know, we have a local news system
here. Um, it's unfortunate though that
the what I see in the local media, uh,
is really just press releases being
read.
>> Yeah. And sound bites, right?
>> Sound bites.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and just reading a press release or
a news.
>> I couldn't have said it better. I mean
that's that I think was with that was in
some ways one of the real main factors
in when we decided to begin this little
public access show is it's interesting
that in a community where a lot goes on
the two main entities WMDT and WBOC as
you said they don't really report as
much as they just echo a press release
or maybe give a 45se secondond snippet
on an issue that really deserves
in-depth coverage. I don't see any
investigative work done and they may not
have the budget for it.
>> I think that's part of it these days.
>> Legacy Media is going away.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, you come from a science background
yourself, right?
>> Yes.
>> And uh so what the what the label says
is what the label is. Uh, and I think
that when you're when you're looking
through social media, when you're
talking politics, for instance, where
would you if you if you saw a politician
who was posting on social media what
their platform was, where would you then
go back to to to validate that that
positioning?
>> Yeah, I just think it takes time and you
just have to see how these positions
develop um consistently or not over
time.
um you know that's the only way that I
can judge. I would prefer to see uh the
the candidate in person. Um like I say,
time is precious and you know I'm
getting older and I found I find a lot
of social media to be a time suck. It
just you know an hour is gone. I don't
have that time.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> so, so we're starting to see a lot of
political candidates in this area
utilize social media to to engage with
the public. Um, you you go to the
meetings. If you just went off of what
you've seen both on the public side, on
social media and and in person, you talk
about that time. Do you feel like the
politicians are putting in the time to
actually be at the ground level to to do
the work or do you think it's more of um
like a like a curated type of image?
>> Well, I do think that everything's
curated that you see on social media. Um
there's probably two types of posts. Um
not that I'm an expert, but uh you know
the what would you call the performative
>> the curated?
>> The curated.
>> Yeah.
And then the reactionary
>> reactionary is not good. It's just too
easy to be triggered by something and
respond. You can always delete it. Um
but that's that's where it becomes very
negative is the once the emotions get be
get involved in the discussion.
>> Do you feel like when you go in person
to council meetings that that the
discourse is much more professional?
>> Yes. People behave a lot better in
person.
>> Yeah,
>> people can behave poorly online.
>> Well, so talking about some information
out there where we really wish there was
more public engagement from all of our
elected officials, uh, city government,
county government. Talk about the 287G.
Um th this this goes into the heart of
the dealings with ICE with illegal
immigrants and the interaction that say
the county government may have with
those illegal immigrants. Right now we
have no agreement accurate.
>> Uh and there's three options when it
comes to 287g.
One of them that the sheriff has made
assertations that he's interested in is
the jail enforcement model,
>> which is where if ICE does picks the
picks illegal immigrants up that the
county would agree to detain them in the
detention center,
>> but we have not heard, it's not on the
county council agenda for tonight's
meeting um in se September. Um are you
concerned that there hasn't been more
public engagement with that particular
topic?
You know, I've seen again press
releases,
>> okay,
>> on this topic. I don't think they are
thorough and I think there's a lot of
information that's missing and should be
made available to the citizens of the
county. Um, the 287G program is a very
beneficial program for the federal
agencies because it pushes the costs
down to the locality.
>> Okay.
>> Um, ICE does pay for training and
instructor
pays for IT infrastructure,
which in this day and age means the
cloud.
>> I don't think anybody's going to get any
equipment out of this deal. M
>> and then oversight that's the three
involvement three uh areas where the uh
federal where ICE is involved. So
training
and the IT and oversight. So the
training takes place in Georgia at the
federal law enforcement training center.
I forget the town in Georgia. Um there's
another center in Charleston for the
more warrant based models. Uh but for
the jail enforcement, the training
occurs in another city in Georgia and
the county is responsible for
overtime.
>> Okay.
>> Travel expenses
for training.
Um it for all other administrative
costs,
everything except those three things
that ICE will pay for. So,
we have an existing police sheriff's
office force. It will not be expanded.
We're not going to get any money to
expand it. These officers who are good
officers,
their time will be diluted
>> or it'll be paid in overtime, which
>> will be paid in overtime and the uh
federal regulation says the county pays
that overtime.
>> Yeah. They don't get to pay for the
rate.
>> Well, well, Dr. Venosa, you've talked,
you've seen on social media, and I know
you're unplugged from the Facebook
>> that there's a lot of misinformation
about and you've gotten letters from the
Democratic Club stating that there's
going to be
>> folks who are going to show up at the
council meeting or encouraging people to
show up at the council meeting tonight.
But you found out that that information
is not accurate. Is that right?
>> Correct. And before I go on, I just have
to say I thought that was a beautiful
encapsulation of not just sort of the
nature of 287g,
but I think people don't realize the
relationship between local government
and the feds in terms of those funds. I
re I just now learned quite a bit. So
I'm grateful for you.
>> One's a big brother, one's a little
brother.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um
>> well, I can add there's a number of
counties that have terminated their
agreements due to the cost. One is
Prince William County in Virginia.
um and ended terminated their agreement,
their 2879 agreement due to costs to the
county.
>> Also, um Gwynet County, Georgia
>> and uh Maricopa County
>> in Arizona
>> and there are others who have terminated
it due to cost to local municipalities.
That actually is an important point
because and obviously there's going to
be different views on it because it is a
very intense issue that's dear to a lot
of people for different reasons, but you
could almost bypass the politics if you
wanted and just look at it strictly from
a fiscal perspective if you wanted to. I
Yeah,
>> which is the only way to be successful I
feel.
>> I I I I would tend to agree with that.
Yeah. And and and to that point and and
and to your question Yeah. So so I'm on
the Democratic uh club mailing list. I
uh attend meetings pretty regularly when
you know what had come out uh a few days
ago was that there was there was already
discussions that the county council was
going to take it out. There were people
on social media who were talking about
it. However, then a mailer went out um
in which it said uh you know they were
encouraging people to come to the county
council meeting uh largely to show
opposition to
>> on September 2nd. on September 2nd. H
and so I got it along with probably
hundreds of other people that are on the
Deming list. And and after I got it, I
actually called my good friend Adam
Hoffman, who's currently the president
of the Democratic Club, and I said, you
know, just FYI, um if you look at the
briefing book, it's not actually on the
agenda. So, if people do want to come
and and talk about it, that's fine.
>> They should come.
>> They should come should come, you should
come anytime you want to talk about any
issue. But if you think that the council
is going to take this up, uh, not
according to the briefing book,
>> uh, I just want to touch, uh, what Mr.
Venosa touched on the, uh, uh, the rumor
about this 287g
uh, that Lcomigo County is considering
participation in. Um, when I heard about
the rumor, I did a little research and I
discovered that on the congressional
website, it says to participate in the
program, LEAs must contact their local
law, their local ICE enforcement and
removal office and apply. So, they can't
just come in and say, "You're going to
do this
immigration. I can't do justice to the
immigration issue in in three minutes."
Um, if ICE comes here with a a valid
arrest warrant for a criminal, it
shouldn't be here. By all means, we
should cooperate. But any other issue to
do with their mission is their job. And
again, uh, I didn't know about the cost
to the county uh, that Mr. Venosa
identified. That would be another reason
um, to not not participate. And
furthermore, just so we're clear, we
might be in a situation in this county
very quickly where the council might
have actually no say or no oversight
over this 287 agreement
>> because that ball is really not in their
court right now. It lies with the
sheriff.
>> It lies with the sheriff and it lies
with the county executive and and
>> they don't have public meetings.
>> Correct.
>> And there is a possibility that the
sheriff and the executive could sign a
364dayou
completely bypassing the council.
>> And and this is what I would like to
say. you know, this is just because I I
think this is the position that I would
at least like to express. Um, I think
regardless of how one feels about it and
you know, for my own record, I'm
personally against entering these
agreements for the fiscal reasons and
frankly for certain moral reasons. But
if you are going to enter into it,
>> it should be done with the involvement
of all the branches of government.
>> Well, see, I I'm in favor of the GEM
model. Okay.
>> But I would only want that with all
three of those institutions involved. I
would want the sheriff because the
sheriff, you know, I would support him
on that,
>> but I would want him to be able to be
accountable as an elected official by
the results and the expense like so let
him explain it. I think the county
executive should be involved because I
think well she actually does have the
control in the Wakcomo County of the
detention center
>> and the county council is the only body
that does holds hold public meetings and
just like some of these concerns maybe
that are uh maybe off base on Facebook
but some of them are very valid. They
should be addressed publicly.
>> Yeah. Whether you agree with it or not.
I think if you cut out the county
council from the process, you're not
just cutting out oversight, you're
actually cutting out the citizenry from
actually explaining and articulating.
And that to me is is an issue that's
that's being overlooked perhaps in this
sort of online discussion.
>> We have good news and bad news. Um bad
news is that Wcomo County has a a crime
rate that is higher than the state
average and the national average. Now,
this is rolling everything, you know,
petty crime up to murder into one ball.
>> And it also, I mean, you can use this
information as an index because you've
got city and and rural all rolled in
together into one number.
>> Um, but it's higher than the state
average, higher than the national
average. So, the good news is that the
rate is coming down a lot. The overall
crime rate is coming down in Wakcomo
County like in the rest of the country.
um in our county. I attribute that to
leadership and training.
>> I think that we have a decent police
force. You know, state of Maryland is a
civilized state. You know, I hear things
that happen in other states and I'm
thankful for the the law enforcement
that we have. Um and I want them to keep
on this trend of of decreasing the crime
rate. They've had a lot of success. I do
not want to see them see their efforts
diluted.
>> Um going on overtime, going to Georgia
for training. 287 does not allow us to
does not give us any money to pay for
more officers.
>> Um and so I'm just concerned that this
downward trend in crime that we've seen
could be stalled uh just due to the
dilution of effort.
>> I do think personnel. I do think that I
hope that you get a chance in a public
forum to make that point because that
should be a consideration
no matter what u of of what decisions
made. And then if there if there is a
decision made to go with any of the
three options that that that statement
is there and and then we can go back and
and look at the the results of of
spending a year or or however long
involved in it. But it definitely
deserves to be in the public forum.
>> Regardless of how you feel about the
issue, I think we we have to agree on
the basic facts and the information. If
if the county council is not going to
specifically take it up, you know, you
may want to think, is it the right time
to coordinate a uh protest or a
appearance of certain groups of of
people and maybe they still want to do
that, but but you have to read the
briefing book. I would I would advise
everybody in Wcomamaku County,
regardless of how you feel about your
political beliefs, your view, us, read
the briefing book.
>> The briefing book. Now, is that the
agenda?
>> Yes, it's the detail.
>> Well, it's the detail of the agenda. So,
at the very least,
>> accessible. Where do you find that?
>> Wakcomount County.org. Okay.
>> Yeah. And if you go on that site, you'll
it'll say Wcomamo County Council. Click
on that and right there on the upper
left corner, it says briefing book.
Let's talk about disagreeing like like
the discourse of disagreeing because we
have heard recently
>> that just by simply disagreeing with a
group you you're getting siloed into
well you're not that so you're this.
>> So Trish you know of the of of us we
don't have the same political views.
>> Uh you and I have been friends for over
a year now. Uh we've known each other.
We've worked on things together. Uh, is
there a is there a way that we would
expect folks to disagree, especially if
they're going to aspire into public
office versus
just spouting off?
>> Well, you know, I think that um when
people enter public office or really
just professionally, it's to everybody's
benefit to have thick skin
>> um in general.
>> Um
>> not to react emotionally. um you know
respond on the facts. I mean basics you
know we all know this.
>> Yeah. I mean
>> apparently not.
>> Well in in your your career
>> but we forget.
>> We forget. That's a good Yeah. or or we
lose our way sometimes and I and
>> which is easy
>> is easy and none of us are perfect and I
think I do think this and you know
you're both scientists so you can back
this up but I think there's plenty of of
data that shows that social media really
does change you know how our brains
function
>> in terms of how we process emotions and
how we deal with levels of dopamine you
know that that flood in when we react to
things
>> the one thing about the scientific
method is once you learn it there's
really not a much of a replacement for
reasoning in your brain and the
scientific method is always going to get
you to ask not what do I think but why
do I think what I think
>> and that is a hard thing I mean you talk
about your background with with u
working with the USDA labels have to be
right there's really not a gray
>> I'm going to jump in for ego's sake as a
historian there's an old expression that
you're also indebted to the facts
>> the question becomes you know if we get
to a point where people just dismiss
facts though and and then say, "Well,
that's that's you know, you can believe
that, but this is what I believe." Even
though the the data and evidence is
there, that's a different conversation
because then it's re rearing into a
whole different realm.
>> Well, thank you very much for coming
out. I really appreciate.
>> I really enjoy Yeah, I I learned a lot
about 287.
>> We'll be right back.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda, Mr. Michael
Langford. Thanks for rejoining us.
>> Thanks for having me.
>> Dr. Renosa, thanks for sticking around.
>> Hey,
>> it's what you do, right?
>> Forget about it. So, uh, it was
interesting to talk to to Trish Melvin,
uh, specifically about social media and
its role. Uh, Michael, you know, you you
have spent a lot of time on social media
dispelling some of the rumors that
whether it's a a local politician is put
out there or maybe even some other
groups who are maybe mad at a
politician. Do you do you feel like it's
a it's a vehicle that can have some use
or should it always just be used with
like kid gloves?
>> Um
I'm going to answer that but a little
indirectly. So what I notic about
Trisha's what she brought the insights
that she brought it was very much like
she goes to primary sources. You can see
that you spoke to you know uh we saw her
you know has a background in science. So
she seems to go to primary sources and
source material and that's really
informing and driving her opinion. So it
like I taught a media literacy workshop,
you know, free course at the library,
right?
>> And that's kind of one of those things a
lot of I really heard a lot of those
sentiments and what I tried to get
across in that workshop in what she was
saying. Um and I think that
>> it's hard to say anything is a good or a
bad thing wholesale. You know what I
mean? There's going to be good things to
recommended. there's going to be the
pros and cons to any any position. So I
think the social media is a tool and it
depends on how people want to use it.
>> So So Joe, I mean are people people can
be can they be too dismissive on social
media just like well you don't fit in
the silo I think you should fit in so
therefore you're just wrong.
>> Sure. And I think that applies to so
many things. Um and it's not just
politics. I I I think politics is where
it's at its worst because there's a
tiein to genuine belief
>> as well as a bigger media infrastructure
whether it's you know
>> you say belief you almost mean like a
religious belief right yeah well like
politics is a religion
>> it's dogmatic so yeah I mean and and you
can and when we talk about the idea of
identity politics it it's even more so
right because it's sort of like because
I'm this this is not only the belief I
hold but if there's a if there's a
deviation from that then you are you are
out of the of the flock so to speak. I
mean you have to think of extreme
identities
again political or otherwise but the
most extreme particularly in a context
of being now for some people perpetually
online it really has a religious or
quasi religious um vibe to it and and
that concerns me a lot because you know
I'm in a profession history where our
profession is founded on analyzing uh
interpretation but then arguing those
interpretations I mean, historians love
to argue like we're still arguing about,
you know, did Stalin know that Hitler
was going to invade or not? Like, that's
still a debate, you know, 80 plus years
later.
>> Did Roosevelt know that the Japanese
were going to bomb Poor Harbor?
>> And and you know what? And you could
find sources that could point you in
both directions or anywhere in between.
That's great. But if you perhaps say,
"Well, I this is my view." And they say,
"Well, we cast you out
>> because you don't agree
>> of the profession or whatever because
you don't agree." That's taking it in a
dangerous direction. And I do think when
we bring it back to like local politics
or local issues, it's it's really
corrosive because it delegitimize
delegitimizes and frankly dehumanizes
uh people by saying, "Well, actually,
you're just a bigot. You're a
misogynist. You're a this, you're a that
because you take a counter position to
what I hold." I don't think that's good
for anybody. Michael, do you feel like
people are looking for you to fit
yourself into a silo into a a square peg
into a round or a square hole? Because
you seem like a lot like you have your
own independent thoughts, right?
>> Yeah. I think that um trying to look at
things case by case in that way. If
people can't look at what you're talking
about and they want to start talking
about who's speaking, that's always a
tell. Well, one of my biggest
complaints, and we've used uh primary
source video from council meetings, city
council, county council meetings, is
when someone wants to revise history.
>> Uh I don't have a problem with any
elected official or any person for being
wrong.
>> But when you when you're proved to be
wrong, you can't go back and say that's
not what I said when that is in fact
what you said.
>> Yeah.
>> Now, we're talking 287g for a second.
There's a lot to unravel here and not a
lot known publicly. I mean, the three of
us stay fairly informed on topics and
just like you said earlier with Trish,
you learned a lot from what she brought.
>> Yeah.
>> And so did I. Um,
>> but we shouldn't have and it's no
disrespect to to to to Trish, but we
shouldn't have to as private citizens
only go by our own research and data
when we have authorities who have good
information, who are in a position of
responsibility
>> to share it anyway
>> to share it. And that I have to say
this, this is my big disappointment
currently in the council, certainly the
executive's office, and even at the
sheriff's office is I believe they need
to better inform the public.
>> And then, okay, if they decide to go
with any of these three options, whether
you agree with them, I agree with one,
Trish doesn't agree with one or the
other,
>> you should be able to go back and look
at the results and and determine what
was it working for the community. Yeah.
Um, Michael talked about this a couple
weeks ago when it came to the hookup
fees. It may have had you it may have
had good intentions cutting through
bureau bureaucratic red tape but it also
may have had unintended consequences and
at some point you got to you got to stop
the bleeding right
>> absolutely I think that um I've been
saying that we need to have uh projects
over parties in local politics we need
to see what what is people's
contribution what can they make what can
they bring to the table I don't really
care anymore what you believe because
what because that could be a liem
anything anyone says could be a lie. So,
it's what are you doing? What is what
are you bringing to the table? And I
think once you bring scrutiny to certain
individuals who are very insecure
because they're not doing that much or
they're doing things performatively, I
think that really uh I think that
unsettles people and we see that like
echo chamber in full effect. And then
all the time all that's going people are
distracted from topics like what you
just brought up where it's like okay but
like we have this we're $3.5 million in
the hole for the water sewer is our
reality.
>> Yeah. Like how are we going to I don't
really care if you're a Democrat or
Republican at this point especially
>> can't fix math like that.
>> So insecurity is that the basis of some
of these folks acting out on social
media and and disregarding the true
topic or the project as Michael said
>> that's a part of it for some. And look,
I'm insecure as much as the next person.
I mean, I I think one of the things you
have to kind of embrace is that like we
all have like I have fears and
insecurities. I mean, I every I've been
teaching for 12 years. Every time I get
up in front of the classroom, I still
have imposttor syndrome and and fears. I
have insecurities about my son. I have
insecurities as a husband, as a dad.
We're human beings. We all h we all have
that. The thing is, what do you do with
those insecurities?
>> Don't let them manifest on Facebook,
right? Well, but well, no, you can.
Well, yeah, that that that'd be a good
start. But but when you when you take it
and almost sort of brew a toxicity out
of it, that actually does harm for
others, especially when you're in when
you're already in elected office.
>> That to me is really dangerous.
>> Well, gentlemen, thank you very much for
coming out and talking about this. And
uh I know you all will be at the city
council meetings and we'll keep an eye
on we know that the county council is
not going to take 2 take up 287g uh
tonight on September 2nd, but as there's
updates we'll give them. Right now
there's just not a lot of updates. So
>> yeah,
>> thanks for watching this episode of Open
Agenda. We'll be back later this week
with another new episode.
And dag on it, I think we all have it.
