You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our
host, Joe White.
>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host,
Joe White. In the studio with me is Dr.
Joe Venosa from Salsbury. Thanks, Joe.
>> Uh, Mr. Jim Atkins from Mardell. Thanks
for sticking around.
>> Yep. So, uh, at the NRCAC meeting, which
is, uh, was on September 10th, one of
our reporters was there diligently
taking notes, and we understand that
there was a a presentation by some of
the county executives, staff, department
heads, and a contracted engineer.
>> And there's there seems to be a a new
plan for this uh, for the spoils out of
Sharp's Point. And I know you've talked
very much, Jim, about the the money side
of this, but the physical side, moving
the the the 25 to 40,000
>> truckloads of dredging out
>> possibly to Conley Mill. Uh there was
talk about 30 years of of of capacity
there,
>> but not sure of what. And uh so Mike has
had a chance to review the the notes and
the minutes from this. He's done a lot
of followup. And I want to bring him in
and ask him. And Jim, I want to I want
to ask you first, what do you hope to
get out of this interview with Mike?
>> Well, there's going to be some more cost
involved in this. Uh, you know, they say
there's 30 years of capacity out there.
There was 5 to seven years of capacity
at the landfill and now we're in a major
major event with the landfill. Uh, if
you're going to talk about cubic yards
of material, let's talk about cubic
yards of capacity at Connley Mill, not
how many years it is. Let's talk
>> what we're talking about and not mix it
up in another way. That's what I'm
interested in knowing.
>> Well, Joe, I'd like to bring Mike in.
Would you stick around and when we come
back, I'd like to just get a sense from
what you saw and and see if some of your
your questions have been answered. All
right. So stay with us. When we come
back, we're going to bring Mike Goldberg
in and talk about dredge spoils and
where they're going. So stay with us.
We'll be right back.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. In the
studio with us now is Mr. Mike Goldberg
from Delmare. Thank you.
>> Yes, sir. Thanks for sticking around,
Jim.
>> Sure. Sure.
>> So we want to talk about a meeting that
hasn't had any public publicity. It's
the NRCAC meeting and uh that was held
on September 10th at the government
office building. And Mike, I want to ask
you first like what what is that even
stand for?
>> Yeah, the uh natural resource uh
conservation advisory committee.
>> Okay.
>> And it is only an advisory committee.
They don't have any force of law, but
they will make recommendations on
various environmental issues to the
administration. And I think they're the
folks too that when they when there's
land trust money that they also do
recommendations about how land trust
money gets doled out. Yes. Okay.
>> So they had a meeting on September 10th
and uh Connie Mill and Sharps Point came
up in that meeting. It was actually
front and center and it was a who who
did the presentation regarding this
meeting? The presentation was done by
the acting landfill director uh Adam
Corey and a gentleman named Chris McCabe
who was formerly uh I believe uh
Maryland Department of the Environment
Inspector but he's now employed by uh
Resource Environmental Solutions LLC uh
commonly known as RES and they're under
contract with the county to assist with
this.
>> So what is their objective? I mean,
there's a project here and they have a
list of objectives removing soil from
Sharps Point and ultimately some of it's
going to end up in Conley Mill at the
quarry.
>> As I understand the objectives and there
there's several different objectives,
but the the primary objective is to find
a place to dispose of the approximately
400,000 cubic yards of dredge spoil
material taken out of the Wcomo River uh
to maintain the navigation channel.
right now it's just piling up at Sharp's
point. They don't have room for more.
It's got to go somewhere.
>> And Jim, I mean, you you've been
following that part of the story. You've
spoken about it several times at council
meetings. This material's been sitting
there for seven years.
>> Seven years since the last dredging of
the Wcomo,
>> but the but there's a a schedule
dredging of of one of the three segments
this winter. So they have to move at
least 100,000 cubic yards of material
out of Sharps Point just to make room
for
>> to make to make room for for what's
being done. Now the last I believe the
last dredging that was done uh wasn't 7
years ago. I believe uh Bob Culver did
dredging of the lower Wakcom River and
when he did that dredging,
they made arrangements with the state
and a large portion of that dredge
material was pumped right back into
surrounding lands around the Chance uh
the lower rock and all
>> reclamation. reclamation to build back
the shoreline which had eroded and use
it instead of just piling it up
somewhere.
>> And for a lot of folks, they maybe don't
even know where Sharp's Point is. It's
it's not far from Upper Ferry.
>> It's not between Upper Ferry and uh
Salsbury
>> and Riverside Drive that in that area.
Yes. And there is a uh I guess a uh
convenience center maybe would locate it
some more for the people in Salsbury. a
uh
public works convenience center there
for for you and that's where that's
where there's not enough room to keep
doing it. Now, in addition to that
primary objective, there's also several
different uh secondary objectives. Uh
one of which is to use the dredge spoil
as part of a system to reduce the
county's carbon footprint as necessary
to comply with uh regulatory greenhouse
gas uh initiatives. Now the carbon
reductions generate what's called carbon
credits which depending on the
jurisdiction can either be applied to
regulatory compliance requirements or
they can actually be traded as
commodities on private markets
>> like for money.
>> Yeah. For money. Absolutely. So
Maryland's uh carbon reduction
requirements are established by the uh
what's called the regional greenhouse
gas initiative. This is nine different
states, northeastern states including
Maryland that are part of this. Um and
um it's essentially a cap and trade
investment program. Um now this can
generate revenue for for the county. Let
me give you an example. Um, let's say um
let's say that Jim has a manufacturing
plant in Delmare that makes uh ceramic
cat statues and it uh he's capped at uh
10 tons of carbon emissions into the
atmosphere every year. But because it's
an old Warrenell facility with old
equipment, he's actually um generating
12. So he can buy credits. One ton of
carbon is equal to one credit. So he can
buy credits for the other two tons and
stay in compliance.
>> He has to go on like a commodity uh
almost like an auction.
>> Exactly. Exactly. Uh right now it's a
voluntary program. Uh but by I I
understand that by 2028 it will become
mandatory.
>> Okay. So now there's a a third um
objective and that's to create on-site
wetland mitigation banks. In other
words, if you destroy uh a wetland, a
regulated wetland, you know, somewhere
else because you're developing a
property and you need to create an
offset to that elsewhere. Well, that
offset could be done at uh at Connley at
Connley Mill Park. Um, some of those
wetlands will actually be constructed
there and uh they may also develop other
storm water quality facilities.
>> I wonder if you've destroyed wetlands by
having an off-road jeep event at Conley
Mill Park. Would you also then mitigate
it with wetlands you construct at Conley
Mill Park?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, that's that that's that's you
couldn't it it could be on the same
site. Okay.
>> But it doesn't have to be on. if you
digit to have a private off-road Jeep
event, then this might be a way to
mitigate it.
>> It it might be, but you know, you're
kind of limited to where you can
actually do this stuff. And, you know,
they're also talking about adding some
recreational amenities such as as
walking trails. So, you know, that's
that's your basic objectives.
>> What would be the process that they
would do this uh these you to complete
these objectives?
>> So, the dread spoil it comes out of the
Wcomo River. Right now, it's being
stored at Sharps Point. What they'll do
is truck that material to Conly I
believe to Conly Mill
>> but some other location
>> at some other location and it sounds
like to me that it'll be a Connelly
mill. We have precious little
information on this right now coming
from the county government.
>> So the the dredge spoil needs to undergo
a process to separate reusable materials
such as sand that can be used to restore
shorelines or can be used for other
types of construction. And I think one
of the things that might might be
counterintuitive for a lot of folks is
sand in spoils is actually a good thing
because it's coarser material. The the
siltaceious part, the clay and the
silts, they have to be treated
differently and they they you definitely
don't want those dumped back into the
river,
>> right? They're not they're not good for
much. So, you know, you either have to
dispose of it elsewhere, but it's
actually sable material to encapsulate
things. Now, let let me explain that.
So, it sounds like what their intention
is is to take what's known as forest
slash. Now, this would be down to timber
from construction or land development
sites. It could be tree stumps and they
have quite a stockpile at the across
from the landfill about 2 and 1/2 acres
I understand of tree stumps.
>> I I saw those when I did did my tour
with Adam Cy back in the summer. There
is there's a large area, huge area that
is basically big tree stumps that they
cannot put through the grinder without
tearing the grinder.
>> Yeah, those those grinders aren't cheap.
So, their plan is essentially to place
this slash material, forest slash
material into the existing sand pit.
>> And then what they'll do is they will
take the unusable part of the dredge
spoil that they've separated the
siltace. It's probably, you know, clay
silt and encapsulate it. And what that
does is it seals off oxygen.
>> Okay?
>> And when there's no oxygen, you have
what's called an anoxic environment.
Then that wood, it can't decompose
easily. And when wood decomposes or
other vegetative matter, it's going to
release carbon into the atmosphere.
>> Yeah. So, what are some of the benefits
that we would find from this project?
There's a number of potential benefits
as I see it. Um, first of all, and most
importantly, it would provide a
deposition site for the dread spoil
that's currently being stored at uh at
Sharp's Point. Uh, reportedly, there's
about a 30-year supply of this of dredge
storage capacity at Conley Mill.
Completely unverified. Don't know if
it's true or not.
>> Who presented that?
>> Uh, that was presented by Adam Corey
>> at the NAC meeting. Okay. A lot of this
information that I've gathered, I I need
to stress that we haven't seen any kind
of plans. We haven't seen any kind of
calculations. We haven't seen any kind
of financial analysis. And that should
really predicate all of this discussion
cuz right now it's a bunch of talk. We
haven't seen anything.
>> Okay.
>> So, um so the benefit is that you know
you can move the dread spoil someplace
where it's not a problem. uh and it will
reduce the amount of forest slash that
would otherwise go into the landfill and
take up space there. And of course, of
course, if it's in the landfill, it's um
uh it's going to be exposed to oxygen
and it's going to create carbon. So, it
reduces the greenhouse gases that you
know would be otherwise released into
the atmosphere. And if they create
wetlands at Connelly Mill, it could
improve storm water quality that
ultimately flows into the uh Wycom
River. And uh obviously uh construction
of of walking trails that would connect
to the Henry S. Parker Park uh would
create a very desirable uh recreational
amenity for the public. But to me right
now, it it remains unclear if it's
actually feasible to have recreational
amenities coexist with the larger
project objectives. But they say that
they're actually working with uh parks
and recreation on this.
>> One thing that Jim's spoken about
before, I mean some of these spoils we
talked about uh and he's addressed it
with Adam Corey about potentially
selling them for reclamation projects at
Holland and Bloodsworth. first started
this and it first came before the
council,
I spoke at uh at a uh public comment
portion
because the county was asking for I
believe $2.5 million to to move 100,000
square yards cubic yards of this
material.
>> That was like the first request. their
first request and and I made a statement
at that meeting that the way this was
that this was going to end up costing
between 10 and 12 million to get this
soil moved.
They later came back before the council
and asked for another 7.5 million
>> for the uh capital improvements
>> for for the rest of getting the rest of
the soil moved out of the CIP. So, we
were at $10 million, which was my low
figure, but by the time they get it
done, we may be at 12 million. My
concern is that
nobody knows what's going on outside of
I guess public works and maybe the
executive's office because that the
conversation was held at one point in
time with public works was had anybody
approached the state or federal
government about uh possibly wanting
this soil? You have Bloodsworth Island
out in uh Tanger Sound at the mouth of
the Wakcom Nanic Coke River which the
Navy uses for
target practice bombing and and putting
the soil on a barge and barging it back
out to Wakcomo and use it to reclamate
Bloodsworth Highlands Island any of that
area out there
fishing bay any of that down there where
the erosion is going. And I was told at
that point in time that
they had contacted the state. The state
asked the county how much they were
going to charge the state per ton for
this soil.
And they were told by the county that
we're not going to charge you anything.
Come get it. Barge it out. It's yours.
Yeah.
>> Well, in my world, that's a $10 million
savings because we're not going to pay
$10 million to to truck it out.
>> It might not be might not be 10 million,
but it would be something right now. You
couldn't ask the public works director
or the deputy director.
>> We don't have any.
>> We don't have one. And this came up at
the council meeting this past Tuesday.
>> I I don't know if I'm asking the right
people the right question, but when we
don't have a public works director or a
deputy director, who's actually in
charge of public works? the director of
administration.
>> Well, Pam Olen, the director of finance,
got asked who was running public works,
and her response was uh director of
administration Bunky Luffin.
>> And Bunky was running the landfill at
one point when we didn't have Cell
Seven's design getting done.
>> Well, that worked out really well,
didn't it?
>> So, what what problems and concerns are
there about this plan?
>> I I see a few um you know, potential
pitfalls. Uh obviously the dredge spoil
has to be moved from Sharp's point. It
has to go somewhere and more dredge
spoil will be created uh by present and
future dredging projects. Past
administrations have failed to address
this problem but the current
administration here we are almost 3
years into it also has not done anything
about this. Uh, and
>> especially despite the fact that there's
been money, $300,000 a year put into
public works for removing some of the
dredge spoils and none of them have been
moved.
>> None of them have been moved. And the
the finance director when presented this
to the council and asked for $2.5
million. We are required by the um Army
Corps of Engineers to get a 100,000
cubic yards out of Sharp's Point by
October
>> October 1st.
>> October 1st of 2025. the council
approved
somewhere in the range of $350,000
every single year since then, since
2020, excuse me, in the CIP, which is
the plan document, but we also put it in
the capital budget. And so I'm I'm
curious as to why um we're all of a
sudden caught off guard because we keep
having the money every year. You put it
in the CIP, it's in the capital budget.
So, why isn't somebody saying, "Isn't it
time to dredge?"
>> $350,000, yes, has been put in um since
I have helped do the budget. The first
budget year that I um presented to
council was 2022. So, I know that the
$350,000 was moved. Prior to that, I
will readily admit I did not go back and
look. I do know the $350,000 was moved
for 22, 23, 24, and now 25. So, that
gives us the $1.2 $2 million that we
have in the account right now. Um again,
we're not recommending that we use those
funds because we're asking for those
funds to be there for setting up the
silt fencing, setting up um doing the
some of the other internal things that
the contractor will not carry.
>> You're asking for 2.3 today. Is that
right? Correct.
>> Correct. But from my recollection here,
I mean, from what I I see as what was
has already been approved in the capital
budget over the last five or six years,
you should already have 2.1.
>> We have 1.2 remaining in the account.
And that's why I'm saying that we're
recommending that that money stay there.
>> The council had already allotted this.
They didn't want to spend that for that.
They wanted more money, new money, and
just keep that in reserve in case
something happened. Mhm.
>> So now we're on the verge of another
crisis kind of like the landfill crisis
um because they haven't done anything
for for quite a few years about moving
this dredge spoil someplace where it can
be deposited and and and forgotten
about. What I'm afraid of uh first and
foremost is that the county council is
once again going to be put into a
position where they have to make a snap
decision because they got to move this
material. and if they don't have all of
the facts are they're going to be
allocating taxpayer funds or perhaps
making some bad decision because of the
absence of information. And as we have
talked about so many times in the past
on this show, there's not a lot of
transparency. Yeah.
>> Um we have been given a lot of
misinformation. for instance, uh you
know, it was represented uh to the
public that the uh uh uh construction of
cell 7 at the landfill would uh go out
to bid for construction bidding the
first week of August. Well, here we are,
you know, half past September and I
checked just this morning, you know, the
procurement website. It's still not out
for bid. So, anytime they tell us
something, to me, anything that's coming
from this administration based on a lot
of history there, we have to take it
with a with a grain of salt. So, I'm
concerned about that. And I'm not trying
to minimize the importance of this
advisory committee. I think it's a very
important committee and I think they do
a lot of research and check into things.
But you've got the
acting assistant director of the
landfill or whatever Mr. Cory's title is
this week going to give them a
presentation and the council has not
been informed of anything. The people
who are going to have to pay for this,
figure out what to do and how to do it.
They don't know anything about it yet.
>> No, they don't. And we also have other
people like the engineering manager who
is involved in this. what her uh
background and experience to do this
type of thing is, I don't know. But
let's just say based on experience, I'm
I'm highly skeptical that she would be
competent to contribute in any meaning
in any meaningful way.
>> Well, am I incorrect in in saying that
this engineering manager was in charge
of public works at the uh at the start
of this administration and nothing had
been done. So
>> yeah.
>> So that's uh
>> So what other what other problems and
concerns do you have?
>> Another one is the process by which they
will separate the dread spoil into
usable materials such as sand and
otherwise unusable materials such as the
sultacious clays that would be used for
encapsulation of the of the uh of the
wood that's being dumped into the Conley
mill uh pit. Um
the I don't know what the process is.
They didn't talk about that. But I only
see two possibilities based on my
limited experience. You either have to
sieve that material to separate larger
particles from smaller particles.
>> Yes. Or it could be a uh hydraulic
process whereby you put water in the
stuff, you make a slurry and then it's
uh it's separated through filters,
>> different densities,
>> right? So I mean in the in the golf
business, in the aronomy business, we we
call that floating. Uh you can float
sand. They do it in in concrete
construction and and sand pits all the
time, but there's there's definitely
different uh measurements for sand and
silt and clay and uh but that does
require a lot of water. It requires a
lot of water and we don't know if the
county owns this machinery. Will they
have to purchase that? My biggest
concern since I live, you know, pretty
close is how much noise will be
generated. This is going to be ongoing
for years and it's going to be happening
every day. I would have to assume that
they'd be separating this material. So,
some can go here and some can go over
there. Uh, as is suitable. Um, if
there's going to be a lot of noise, I'm
wondering how much noise will be
created. How many decibels from the
source? I'm the lay person at the table.
You've got a aronomy person here. You've
got an engineering person here.
delay person wants to know
if the county has asked for and and been
given $10 million to move this soil from
Sharps Point to somewhere.
If it gets sent to Conley Mill to be
separated, the silt from the sand and
everything else,
okay, you're trucking it from Sharps
Point to Connley Mill. Once it's
separated, do you not have to truck it
somewhere else again?
>> Well, you you do and it may the the
material the coarser sandy material that
may be suitable for landfill cover. It's
not that far to take it from Connelly
mill. Uh but you could also sell it, you
know, for other purposes. Again, it
could it could be a component of
Portland cement which is used to make
concrete. Uh you know, they could come
pick it up themselves. you know, it
depends on the quality of the material.
So, yeah, there there's a lot in
involved there. And um we've seen no
economic analysis whatsoever on this.
Not saying it doesn't exist, but it
certainly hasn't been released to the
public at this point.
>> So, what's the next step, Mike? I mean,
who I mean, is there is there folks that
we should be reaching out to? Is there
uh if someone else out there is
concerned, who who should they be
contacting? Well, they should be
contacting uh Adam Corey because I must
assume that he is the lead man on this.
Um I don't think we're going to get a
lot of answers at this point. Uh they
have to put their plan together and it
doesn't sound like they're they're done
with this.
>> Josh Hastings uh on the county council,
he's very involved in environmental
matters and and uh natural resource
matters. Uh, I would also think if
you're looking for someone on the county
council side, he's probably somebody you
should
>> he's probably the best person to go to
on on the county on the county council
side.
>> Mike, talked about who we can follow up
with. Uh, Jim, it' be interesting to see
if this comes up in the briefing book in
the next month or so. I know you're
going to you you've been staying on top
of the cost part of moving the soil out
of Sharps Point. Mike, will you keep us
in informed of what's going on?
>> You can count on it. Right.
>> Thanks for watching this segment of Open
Agenda. We'll be right back.
Welcome back to Open Agenda. Dr. Joe
Vanosa, thanks for joining us again.
>> Thank you for having Jim. Thanks for
sticking around. Sure. Sure.
>> So, Mike has a lot of information. Yes.
>> But when you add up all the answers to
the to the questions, there's not a lot
of answers. There's a lot of questions.
And the one most significant thing, and
you brought it up, is the council
probably has no idea this is going on.
>> Uh Dr. Dr. Nosa, I want to ask you, we
we covered the Sharps Point situation
back in the spring.
>> We did
>> talking about the 25 to40,000 truckloads
that would mathematically have to come
out of there to move this out.
>> Yeah.
>> Jim's talked about the this 10 million
12 million that's going to be spent to
do this.
>> What do you think when you hear like now
we're I don't know if we're on plan C or
D or seven or
>> we're on plan E. Expensive.
>> There you go. Okay. Yeah.
>> Um, you know, we we talked a little bit
with Mike about possibly reaching out to
like Josh Hastings, County Council. He
works with NRCAC a lot, maybe even to
the department heads themselves like
Adam Corey. What What should folks out
there do if they're worried about how
their government's working?
>> Well, I think if you're particularly
worried about what it means for your
residential location, because again,
what what is the essence of this?
They're moving the dredging. Okay. How
many truckloads are we talking about?
>> At least 25,000.
>> 25,000 truckloads. That means it's going
on somebody's road. It's going near
somebody's driveway where somebody's
kids play.
Bottom line with that is that there are
significant logistical and safety
concerns that everybody in the county
should have, particularly if you're in
an area like, let's say, Riverside Drive
where you're going to have a lot of
those trucks. Coincidentally, me and a
few friends live pretty close to there.
So, this affects us, but it affects
everybody. So, I would say contact your
county council members. Count certainly
contact county council President John
Cannon. Council members Josh Hastings
and Jeff Merritt uh would also be great
because Mr. Merritt currently represents
part of that district that this affects
as does Mr. Hastings. Um and certainly
go to the next county council meeting
and bring it up. Also,
um I don't know if she'll answer, but
the county executive list I checked has
a public email. I would send any
inquiries directly to her office.
>> Yeah. I mean, this does feel a little
bit like maybe the biodeiesel refinery
or Safari the quarry where the public's
going to find out about this
>> last
>> last and and and maybe that's the best
we can do right now is that they're just
not last to find out or maybe find out
only after this has started.
>> Yeah. bring some awareness and I and I
mean I I'm all in favor of of everyone
reaching out to their county council
representative, but uh I just want to
put the caveat out there that uh when
you call when you call them, ask them uh
if they can find out anything because
>> you can't call and ask them a question
right now about it because they don't
know anything about it. So, you know,
call and tell them that you're
concerned. Uh you'd you'd like for them
to dig into it. Uh find out some more
information so it can be addressed and
talked about, but don't call and ask
them what's going to happen, when it's
going to happen, because they don't
know. They don't have a clue either.
>> And maybe the best way to thread that
needle, so to speak, then is to see if
the council can put this on an open work
session.
>> Yeah. At least ask the questions.
>> At least ask the questions. The public
can come and maybe even some of the
executives people will actually answer
those questions.
Well, thank you, gentlemen. We're going
to stay on top of the story and uh we'll
we'll see where this goes. So,
>> thanks for watching this episode of Open
Agenda. We'll be back later this week
with another new episode.
That is not the item up for discussion
today.
