You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our
host, Joe White.
>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host,
Joe White. In the studio with me today
is Mr. Trish Melvin from Fruitland and
Mr. Jim Atkins from Mardella.
>> Good morning.
>> Thank you both for coming out. Y
>> you both were in attendance with me at
the September 16th Tuesday council
meeting. Uh it's a daytime meeting.
>> And we want to take this show to update
everyone on the social media aspect. Uh
we we covered that with you a couple
weeks ago and uh we had some other folks
who were there who who are going to
report on exactly what was said, but um
you know we we really watched the
exchange uh amongst the the council and
talking about the the the social media
post by the teacher um and the county
executives reaction to that. Uh there
was some talk at the county council
meeting, but then I think we got the
sermon later, right? And uh it was an
uncomfortable time.
>> Yeah, it was
>> especially for some other folks in the
in the uh in the audience who who almost
seemed like they were targeted towards
the Councilman James W's message, right?
>> Uncomfortable and uh totally unexpected.
Unexpected.
>> Well, also unexpected was uh I mean we
did talk about chickens.
>> Yeah, we did.
>> And uh
>> we did.
>> I mean, what a transition, right?
>> Oh, yes. I tell you, it's
>> And you were misqued. I want to talk
about this later, but you were misqued
by the county executive in the work
session, right?
>> Called out and misqued at the same time.
So,
>> and we're going to we're going to play
the videos. So, we're we're going to get
to the bottom of that.
>> Would both of you stick around? I
actually want to bring in the Joe's.
We've never had a chance to film a
segment with just a bunch of Joe's. Um,
>> and I I promise we'll do a good job.
But, uh, if you would, I'd like to come
back because I want to get some of your
feelings from what they had to say and
also, uh, just what you saw at the
council meeting.
>> Okay.
>> Of course.
>> So, stay with us. When we come back,
we're going to present to you Three
Joe's. So stay with us. We'll be right
back.
Welcome back to Open Agenda. In the
studio with me now is Dr. Joe Venosa
from Salsbury,
Mr. Joe Scafina from Salsbury. This is
an above average number of Joe's in one
show.
>> You know, you stole my joke.
>> Oh, is that what you were going to say?
Well,
>> what do you think, Joe? Do you agree
with Joe?
>> Sure.
>> All right. Well, the Joe's agree. So,
uh, we we need to talk a little bit
about the social media stuff. We we
started talking about several weeks ago
because our county executive has
definitely used social media as a
weapon. Um, whether you agree with her
or not
>> on on on the the the the nature of of
that teacher's post and and look, at the
very least, it's in really poor taste.
Um,
and that's my opinion, but there are
some people who who want to enact, you
know, county code or or board of
education code that would say you can't
do that.
>> But at the very least, can we agree that
social media is not the place to discuss
this?
>> Correct. I agree.
>> Um, and and Josh, talk about your your
background a little bit, Joe. I mean,
you've been on councils before, right?
>> Yeah. I I've served uh I was eight years
a councilman, three as a vice president.
Okay. Um, I also have a background in in
law. I'm a certified parallegal, so I
can I can delve into first amendment
issues, free speech issues.
>> So, when you were vice president of the
council up in Pennsylvania, were you
were you ever angered by something?
>> Uh, sure. I mean, you know, you got
people in the in the in the in the
audience that don't agree with you, and
some of them will will attack you, uh,
you know, verbally, but as a as an
elected official, that's part of the
job. you know, you don't, you know, you
don't go on social media and attack
back.
>> Clearly, some people in Marcomo County
haven't followed that uh wisdom.
>> So, Dr. Vidos, I want to ask you what
what actually transpired from the the
comment that the teacher made and and
the the reaction from the county
executive.
>> Sure. So, my understanding is the day of
the assassination, a local teacher
posted on Facebook a meme that basically
mocked uh this public figure's
assassination
um
>> attributing it to Donald Trump and his
cover up of
>> of the Epstein files. Yeah, it was so it
was kind of basically saying, "Okay, you
have to take one for the team because
I'm getting bad media coverage over the
Epstein connection." So, I I think we
all would agree it was pretty bad taste
and certainly not well timed. Um but
here's the thing. the county executive
as the head of the Wakcom County
government publicly stated that this
teacher should be forced to resign. I
guess that would be fired then. I don't
know cuz if you force somebody to
resign,
>> it is fired at baseball.
>> At least in baseball. Yeah. Um so she
she wants this teacher fired and also
stated though that that in part because
he was inciting violence. Now that
>> what violence did he incite?
>> Exactly. Well, and if you read the
English language and see the meme,
you'll know that he he didn't do that.
Again, not in disagreement that it was
in bad taste, but he certainly did not
issue a call for violence. Um, it's not
as if um he posted pictures of guns
after a mass shooting like some other
former teachers did,
>> but she actually called his name out.
>> She did. And and this is the issue is
that um apart from the fact that she has
been a teacher for several years in the
county um and should know the policies
and protocols which she has now violated
um she's opening up the county to a
tremendous civil liability.
>> You think so? I mean you think
>> I absolutely agree. So, if that was to
happen, would that delay any personnel
repercussions that this teacher might
have by breaking the the county policy,
the the board of education policy on
social media?
>> Based on based on my my my legal uh
background, I would say yes.
>> Okay. So, that would be justice not
served in itself.
>> Absolutely. And and of course, this is
also tied to the fact that because there
seems to be a local blogger who acts as
a quasi arm of government communication
who also spread out this teacher's name
and personal information, it would seem.
Uh, and it is my understanding that this
teacher and his family have gotten
direct threats. Um, so if I'm sitting in
the position of this person who is now
being targeted by the executive and
certain bloggers, um, I might want to
consider contacting my attorney to file
a different lawsuit.
>> Well, and and and we and we've dealt
with that when during the the Question A
campaign. Uh, our addresses were posted
by the by the same blogger by uh some
other folks in that circle. Uh, you
know, inciting violence, even if you
think you're in the right, is still the
wrong thing to do. Absolutely. And, uh,
Absolutely. So,
>> yeah. Um, I did just want to say this.
Um, and I don't know if if they're
watching, but I actually really, uh,
this has been, you know, I've I've
talked to some people in the past about
my own experiences with not just with
the, you know, having your address
posted, but, you know, kind of being
politically targeted in your job for
things you may or may not do. And so I
have tremendous sympathy for uh the
teacher's family especially. Again I and
it's my understanding that this teacher
is actually has quite a glowing
reputation in the community as a
teacher. Again um I don't judge a person
by one uh ill-advised social media
comment. That would be the definition of
cancel culture. Um but I think the
community is going to find out in the
coming weeks that there's a lot more to
this story regarding the executive's
actions and what's motivating her uh
than just this post. and she was she was
allowed to to retract the and apologize
for the email she sent out from her
board of education email uh during her
campaign. Yeah. I mean it was a mistake.
She apologized
>> in 2022. The then teacher at Bennett,
Julie Jordano, used government, i.e.
public school email server address for a
fundraising uh email. um that you could
argue was more of a uh fireable offense
than what occurred regarding uh this
other teacher, but she apologized and
good for her. She was allowed to keep
her job. So, it's interesting that we
don't extend the same grace to others.
>> Well, so Joe, I mean, you're you're a
you're a public figure as far as that
interface with your students.
>> Sure.
>> And obviously there's going to be times
where you you you anger a student. Uh so
I mean what's your way of handling that
is is and what what role does social
media play in that at all?
>> Well in terms of how it affects my
relation with my students it should have
no role because that's out of the
classroom.
>> Okay.
>> So like you know I teach history so
those
ideally when you have engaged students
and you have great discussions and yes
disagreements sometimes not you know
often it's between students because
you're getting material and you're
debating or trying to understand an
issue. That's actually what you want.
The question is you keep it within the
confines of the issue and you certainly
don't then take those things and then
try to weaponize a social media post to
say like you know John is a Stalinist
because he read this document in a
certain way that you know seems to
support the Soviets or this person is a
is a Nazi because they you know
mentioned that the Nazis did
infrastructure good or something you
know these are these are crazy
hypotheticals hyperbole right they're
very hyperbole But even my students,
I don't think would ever go the length
that some of our local officials have
gone,
>> okay,
>> to go out on social media, make posts
that have real legal ramifications, let
alone physical um safety concerns for
certain people, uh, and do it in this
manner. It's it is beyond reckless. It's
embarrassing. It's a disaster as far as
I'm concerned. I think Councilman
Merritt put it very well. He says, "If
you're looking at the county from the
outside and you're going to come here
and you're thinking of teaching or
opening a business and you're worried
about certain officials like the county
executive threatening you perhaps or or
seemingly encouraging threats, why would
you come here?"
>> Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about what
the process probably should be.
>> Uh I mean, we have a superintendent of
schools and we have a school board. Yep.
>> Uh personnel matters. Is that is that is
that the confines they need to be to to
stay in?
>> Absolutely. I mean, this this clearly
falls into a personal matter that the
school will address. Um, and what's so
nefarious about this is the executive
knows this because she's been on the
other end of this, too. Um, the
rhetoric, I mean, that that has starting
to pile up and has has already had some
violent
>> uh ramifications. We uh, you know, last
week a a young child watched their their
father get killed right in front of
them.
>> Who cares what political beliefs they
have? whether I agree with them and you
don't or or whatever it that's that's
the truth.
>> And not only that, young children in
this county who have parents that are
teachers who've been targeted by certain
officials have also, is my
understanding,
received or witnessed certain threats.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think hypothetically if I'm a
teacher who's been targeted by
government official and it's led to
direct threats, I definitely would
imagine I'd be meeting with some
attorneys.
>> So we were looking for someone to save
us. Would it be Councilman James Win?
>> Uh cuz it seemed like he was trying to
at the last council.
>> Oh, he's he's definitely trying to save
us. Uh not maybe in the way that I would
hope. Okay.
>> Um but
>> Joe, you were at this meeting as well,
right?
>> I sure was. I almost fell out of my
chair.
>> I brought I brought something important
here today that we've got some people in
this audience and in this council that
are trying to figure out what is going
on in the world. Why is this happening?
Why the craziness? Right? I hear it up
here. And I'm telling you, it's because
people were falling away from the word,
from Christ.
And it's actually everything's right
here. The answers, this is truth. You've
got the beginning, you've got the
present, and you've got the ending
written right here. It's all here. It's
already in Thessal uh second
Thessalonians where there will be a
falling away. And I have a few
scriptures that I'd like to read if
that's okay. Romans
8:28. And we know that all things work
together for good to them to God
to them who are the called according to
his purpose.
Now
that that's that's powerful. But we have
to understand that yes, Charlie Kirk was
a political commentator, but he got his
politics based off of this book. If you
watch him, if you read this book and you
listen to what he's actually saying, it
resonates. And I just I just want
everybody to really think about this. I
know not everyone here is a Christian
and that's okay. I'll pray for you. And
you know, there's only one way. There's
only one way
>> and that's that's through Jesus Christ
as your Lord and Savior.
>> Also says,
>> "Excuse me, ma'am. I'm sorry.
>> The light of the world,
>> the resurrection and the way, the true
life.
>> Jesus spoke of love."
And what we're seeing in government
right now in the White House, it's not
>> it's not love. It's not love. And it's
not the way Jesus talked. any other you
watch ma'am excuse me but you are out of
order apologize
>> I completely understand Councilman W's
dedication to his faith uh and him using
>> even a scripture to to have
just explain how he's going about the
process of decisions he's making I I
don't I find that fine
>> but there were five scriptures read at
the at the meeting uh five and then I
think what really was the the the
kudigra over all of it was when he
stated that well many of you aren't
Christian and don't worry I'll still
pray for you as if to say from a
governing table you're you're not of
equal right
>> absolutely so I mean
>> well and he also made I I believe the
point he said there's only one way which
if I'm looking at that literally that
means the government is saying there is
an official religion there's only one
way cuz he's a government official in
that context This is not this is not
Jimmy Winn and Joanosa hanging out at
the bar debating theology. This is the
government saying to me,
>> you're not a from his perspective,
you're not a Christian. Uh I will pray
for you because there is only one
religion. There is only one way and I'm
going to say that in this government
office.
>> So let's talk about history for a
second. In the in historical context,
>> there have been other government types
that have had that ideology. Sure.
>> Um, how do you characterize those
governments in general over the years?
Are they are they open or are they
closed?
>> Well, it's always been in global history
um very difficult to separate religion
or spirituality from politics. That's
not that's not really I mean that's the
that's the norm so to speak. Um, you
could make the argument and again
there's a great debate. There's actually
a great documentary that Ken Burns is
making right now on the American
Revolution where this comes up. So,
>> okay,
>> plug for Ken Burns's documentary
perhaps. Um,
but
one of the interesting things about the
American Revolution and in particular
the the Constitution, right, is that
many of our founding fathers were
deists. They weren't particularly
religious uh in their private lives. uh
some some some were. But the first
amendment was a unique radical thing in
part because it made the separation
between religion and government in in in
writing. In part because they had seen
um that other governments had really
blended those roles in ways that were
dangerous because many people that came
to the Americas fled from state
persecution of religious minorities. you
think of the Quakers in Pennsylvania,
the Catholics initially in Maryland, the
Yugonauts.
>> Um, and so as a historian, uh, and
again, my own personal view is I'm not a
Christian. I'm not I'm not really, uh,
religious. I'm I'm sort of an agnostic.
I think being a rabid atheist is to some
extent just as sort of dangerous as
being a rabid theological person because
you're both certain about something.
>> So that's my view as a person.
Nevertheless, um I think historically
you can make some good arguments that
anytime you have the government stepping
on your religious liberties and and
dictating a faith and also perhaps
dictating what you can and can't say, it
doesn't end well.
>> So Joe, I mean, you're talking about
your legal background um and and you're
been very involved in politics. You were
at this meeting. What legal
ramifications do you see from Councilman
W's comments and and just how that went
down? Well, it really depends on how
it's handled from here on out. Um, does
the council president and and Mr. Wyn
address it at the next meeting? Do they
admit it was a mistake? Um, or do they
double down? I think that's
that's going to determine where it goes
from here. There have been plenty of
lawsuits here in the fourth circuit uh
courts uh addressing this issue. The
citizens come to a secular public
meeting. We don't come as Christians, as
Jews, as Muslims, agnostics. We come as
citizens of the county.
>> So, you know, to to be
forced to sit there and listen to
somebody pro proitize
>> about their faith
>> is is impermissible. It's wrong.
gentlemen will be continuing to attend
council meetings and uh it'll be
interesting to see if there is uh some
sort of u retraction or or or censure
that will come out of this.
>> I have written a letter to and it's gone
to every councilman as of uh yesterday.
Okay.
>> So, I've gotten one response from one
councilman.
>> I won't won't won't name names. Um
hopefully he'll go public with what he
said in the letter that that he agreed
with my my my what I wrote. So we'll
see.
>> Okay.
>> Well, thank you gentlemen. Appreciate
it.
>> Thanks for watching this segment of Open
Agenda. We'll be right back.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. Thank you
for banning chickens.
>> No problem. No problem. I'm I'm all in
favor of chickens.
>> You You do like chickens.
>> I do like chickens. I
>> And not just on your plate.
>> That's right. I like chickens. uh
grandmother had a yard full of them when
I was a little child and uh I've taken
chickens from A to Z, so I know all
about them. Well, county executive at
the work session said that you wanted to
ban chicken.
>> First and foremost, um I just wanted to
comment on Mr. Atkins uh comment. Uh we
are not looking to ban chickens at all.
So, I'm not really sure where that came
from. Um that is not what we are trying
to do at all. So, I want to put that on
the record.
>> Jim Atkins, Wakcom County. Let's talk
about chickens. Anybody want to talk
about chickens?
>> Yeah.
>> We live on the Eastern Shore of
Maryland. If it wasn't for chickens,
there wouldn't be a whole lot of things
going on around here anymore.
Uh but uh
all of a sudden the executive branch is
concerned about chickens in residential
areas.
Uh I think the county needs to stay away
from this.
You have approximately 50% of the county
lives in a mun municipality.
If the municipality doesn't want
chickens in their yards, let them handle
it. A lot of the developments have
homeowners associations that have bylaws
that don't allow you to have chickens in
the yard. Why does the county need to
worry about this?
It took a year approximately to get the
county to do something about a dog
kennel in Sharptown. It had 60 dogs in
it. And now we're going to worry about
chickens.
Counties worried about uh three new
liquor legislation request.
County executives worried about removing
the decals from her cars due to her fear
of safety after last week. Well, she
never wanted the decals on the car to
begin with,
>> right?
>> But now she's got a reason to take them
off.
The county has a reason, council has a
reason since she is in violation of
legislation enacted by the county
council
to take her car away from her. So, let's
either get the decals on the car or she
can use her personal car to drive back
and forth to work.
>> That's what she said. And uh I didn't
think I said that, so I had to wait
until uh it came out on Pack 14 so I
could go back and watch it. And once
again, the county executive uh misstated
something because in my public comments,
the word ban was never mentioned at all.
But according to our county executive, I
want to ban chickens. Uh I want to make
make sure that they fully understand. I
have nothing against chickens
>> and one of your points is you would like
to see a second public comment section
during the work session similar what the
city council does. Yes, I have I have
asked for that numerous times and with
the county council president, vice
president and uh I just have a hard time
that
in an open work session people are
allowed that are presenting to sit there
and say anything they want to say, but
that the audience has no chance to
challenge them or rebut what they're
saying when they say something that's
untrue.
The only option you have is to wait a
minimum of two weeks, sometimes 3 weeks
until the next council meeting to stand
up there and say what needs to be said.
Well, just talking about what you said
and how things should be put out in
public. uh you were just here a couple
weeks ago and we talked about social
media, the use of that and now just two
weeks later as we heard from the two
Joe's we have this glaring example of
the misuse of social media talking about
uh human resource personnel matters in
open in open source.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean a couple of weeks ago
I was talking about how my opinion about
social media, how it's very detrimental
to a lot of people and society at large
and I think it can break people's minds.
Um, it sounds like the teacher that
we're talking about has a good history,
good record,
probably spends too much time on
Facebook, you know, was triggered by
something and and compelled to make an
ill-advised post. You know, I I don't
blame it so much on the teacher as being
having their mind affected by social
media.
>> Well, it was a choice they made to be on
there and and they did they did hit that
button
>> and and there is ramifications.
>> Mhm. But you know,
>> many of us would want that to be done
partly.
>> Yes. And and the very interesting part
to me is she got involved
in something that she had no business
getting involved with on social media
uh dealing with the policy of the board
of education and a teacher and putting
it out there in the public sphere for
everyone to know and see. But when the
county deals with an employee, there is
a closed work session.
>> Yeah.
>> For the privacy of the employee. So, you
know, we're doing this on one hand for
the county employees.
But on the other hand, a teacher or any
person in the county, if she decides
that she wants to throw a dart at them,
there she goes.
>> Well, now the dart's gone, so it's out.
>> Wholly inappropriate.
>> Yeah. you know, from the get- go on
everybody's part.
>> And then, you know, speaking of that
too, I mean, you you were there when
Councilman Wyn really turned uh the
council table into a pulpit. Um, and it
was uncomfortable for a lot of folks
there. Uh, what would you say was the
mood of the of the council meeting prior
to that? And then how did it shift when
he's really started to to to give the
sermon?
>> It was a fairly standard meeting, you
know, uh, nothing unusual, fairly
routine. And even Mr. win's initial
comments were proceeding normally. Um,
but he did pull out the Bible. There's a
lot of little sticky yellow uh pages in
it and I thought, "Oh no, what's
happening?" Um, and then he did start
the um sermon and I was uncomfortable.
um the audience or the people in the
meeting, the citizens were uncomfortable
and we started looking at each other and
um then when certain things were said, I
thought best for me just to leave.
>> Mhm.
>> Which I did.
>> And and really you were you were there
to talk about the 287g. You were hoping
to find out more information. There
wasn't anything on the agenda. I mean
there was never a chance to ask
questions about the thing you were
actually most hopeful to get information
on. Well, you know, not only just me. I
I think the council, you know, more
important than me, I think the council
was hoping to get some information. And
my understanding is that um the
executive was invited to the meeting on
Tuesday, but um didn't come for for the
uh first part um but only showed up to
talk about the chicken issue.
>> And you you you had a nice presentation
that you presented during your public
comments. I mean, you you you went
through and did the math. And
>> well, you know, I like a puzzle and I
like a challenge. I got to dig in. I
often don't let go. So, uh, for me is I
like to investigate things like that.
Um,
>> but I shouldn't have to.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and I think when people start
being evasive and you're getting
contradictory stories that just compels
people to be curious and and keep
looking. I will say if if this county
executive has inspired anything, she has
expire inspired a large number of
citizens to get much more involved in
their government.
>> She doesn't
address important things in front of the
council. she says for her
emotional well-being that that that she
can't deal with the council. But, you
know, the the landfill is one of the the
major things that happened uh here
recently about the landfill possibly
being closed. It all started with the uh
rate increases in June. Well, in June
through August,
there were five council meetings in
which the landfill was discussed
uh about what was going to happen to it,
what needed to happen, and how quickly
it needed to happen.
Uh she chose not to appear for either
council meeting concerning landfill,
which concerns every citizen in the
county.
She held a press conference
and notified everybody of one of the
meetings on June the 15th and then she
went to DC to uh take a tour through the
White House
>> because that was more important.
>> So now here she comes. She wants to talk
about chickens and how many chickens and
what you can do. And I brought up the
the subject Tuesday. It took the county
almost a year to do something about the
dog problem, kennel problem
with 60 dogs there. We need in this
county a nuisance violation,
which you don't have to specify
chickens, dogs, cows, horses. If it's a
nuisance and it's caused a nuisance,
then the county should be able to act on
it. They talked a little bit about uh
noise violations. Well, I never realized
and I found out when the dog issue was
going on in Sharptown.
>> We don't have one.
>> Why county doesn't have a noise
violation?
>> A lot of counties do.
>> Yeah. It's it's an acute and a static.
>> Yeah. So, I mean, you can you can
address a myriad of problems with a
nuisance ordinance instead of chickens
today, pigeons next week, and and geese.
I mean, you know, they talk about
Canadian geese. Well, you're not going
to do anything about Canadian geese
unless you get the the federal wildlife
people involved and they come down and
and tell you how to how to handle it or
what they'll do to sterilize the eggs or
or get rid of the geese. But just just
my thing is we need to stop calling
these Canadian geese. They're not
Canadian geese. Maybe they maybe Julie
wants to fight the Canadians while
Donald Trump is fighting the Mexicans.
Well, that may be, but these geese are
not Canadian geese.
>> They've never been to Canada.
>> Yeah,
>> they were born and raised here.
>> They're American geese. They're not
Canadian geese. They're American geese.
>> Well, Jim, thanks for not here to here
to the chickens on the Eastern Shore.
>> All right. Well, thanks for watching
this episode of an Agenda. We'll be back
next week with another new episode. Love
the chicken.
Below average, Joe, where the heck this
is pie, right?
