Open Agenda TV S2 E6: NAACP Lawsuit and Lawfare
Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
you're watching open
Agenda welcome to open Agenda I'm your
host Joe White in the studio with me is
Mr Mike Goldberg from delmare and Dr Joe
venosa thank you gentlemen thank you
thank you so uh you you all covered
extensively last week uh the the same
main topic that was just at the County
council meeting this past Tuesday
February 4th which is the NAACP and the
aclu's lawsuit against the county and
the Ed M uh talk a little bit about you
know just exactly how the the meeting
went and and there was a public comment
section too right yeah sure so um the
meeting featured a pretty extensive
presentation by Mr Kevin karpinsky the
attorney for the county and he went over
uh not only the essence of the case and
the history behind it but the specific
nature of why the
1965 Voting Rights Act was violated
according to this particular
situation PL also alleged to claim under
uh 42 USC section
1983 uh that the current 52 composition
also violated the equal protection
Clause of the United States
Constitution um the purpose of the
Voting Rights Act is to ensure that the
political process is equally open uh to
all individuals including minority
voters and to that end the Supreme Court
in thorberg versus Jingles set forth a
number of factors is that the court
looks at in determining whether there is
a viable a potential section uh to
violation of the Voting Rights Act a
trial of this kind of case cost millions
of
dollars uh to go ahead and in addition
under 42 USC
1988 uh if the plaintiffs were to
Prevail on their case uh the county is
responsible for paying their attorney's
fees as well
rather than head down that path um I
think the county took a very prudent
course of action which was to explore um
whether this could get
resolved without expending that type of
taxpayer money and potentially exposing
the county to uh a significant amount of
taxpayer dolls going to pay attorneys
fees for not only the defense but also
for uh the plaintiffs litigating this
case uh the plaintiffs provided a map to
the county that map was analyzed um uh
by the county
inhouse um the map was um uh basically
uh
modified um made some modifications to
that map and uh the plaintiffs have
agreed that the seven districts that are
set forth that were proposed by the
county would satisfy their concerns
about a possible violation of section
two of of the Voting Rights Act uh and
that that would be would be the map that
would be used moving forward if indeed
the parties were able to reach a
settlement he gave a pretty good
summation of it the specifics about the
demographic data the nature of the
districts and then after his comments
were made Representatives um from the
group of plaintiffs spoke the lawsuit
is about more than just moving lines on
the map or
redistricting it's about
Justice it's about representation and
it's about
engagement the purpose of the lawsuit is
for the county and School Board to
acknowledge the unfairness of the
election system they employ and to
reform it from the 52 system to a
racially Fair system of seven single
member districts now Mike you covered a
lot of the information that was going to
be addressed at this County council
meeting on on our episode last week uh
was there any surprises was there
anything that was new or was it exactly
just you know what was laid out in the
brief book well you we were're able to
get a little bit more information from
the attorney you know Mr karpinsky I I
think that it may have been a surprise
to you know many County residents they
um uh they really didn't have a whole
lot of Prior notice that this was even
going to be happening the
redistricting um I'm surprised there
wasn't a lot of push back on that quite
frankly um I'm kind of glad there wasn't
uh the Hope was well many of us hop that
they would Forstall a vote for a couple
of weeks until the general public could
become more informed but they uh did
choose to to take the vote immediately
Mr karpinsky did talk about that there
was a little bit of time of of the
essence in order to get this settlement
because this this lawsuit I mean right
now is going to cost the the county
125,000 and the Board of Education
10,000 but it could actually you know
escalate much more he actually gave the
the example Baltimore County being at
nearly a million dollars already
Baltimore County has one of these cases
pending it's still in litigation and
it's been stayed ending review of a case
before The Supreme Court but the fees in
that case are over $900,000 and they get
through one preliminary
hearing um so you know again once these
cases start getting ramped up they
become very expensive sure and if the
case were to be adjudicated rather than
settled out of court who knows what it
would have cost but it probably would
have been in the six figure range uh or
or more and and as he stated that has no
guarantee that it would go
go the County's way quote unquote or
even you would get a resolution in any
near you know in any quick time frame in
fact it seems that the greater
likelihood would be that um that the
courts would not um rule in favor of the
county so they would have spent a heck
of a lot of money and still had the same
outcome yeah so what role did the 2021
redistricting committee uh maybe play
into the naac P's decision to sue the
county well based on the comments that I
heard as well as uh some of the video
that the members of the public can watch
on pack 14 from that redistricting
commission there were concerns brought
up uh I Believe by Dr Kell Nagel when he
because he was a member of the
redistrict redistricting commission so
that the proposed lines
could be used in a future lawsuit that
violates the Voting Rights Act so these
are the lines that were drawn shortly
after the 2020 ensus correct that
supposedly we were supposed to use for
the next 10 years the next three
election Cycles U obviously we're going
to use some different ones now for the
next election but uh I mean we we know
Mike Dunn was on that committee I
believe and and Julie jodano before she
was uh County Executive was on that
committee right most certainly so is
this part of the same uh disconnect
between the transparency and the public
access to government is this another
example of the same situations we've
seen I think it I think you could make
the argument that it certainly um
doesn't appear as transparent as it
could be I mean those were public
meetings they weren't necessarily
advertised in an aggressive way and
certainly um I didn't see the commission
go out of its way to really engage the
public um I would make the argument
personally that I don't necessarily
think uh those two individuals you
mentioned are necessarily proactive and
talking about groups that have
historically not been part of the voting
process and we haven't heard anything
from them since this lawsuit came about
a little over a year ago no so uh you
know the the outcome is that we're for
the next election cycle we're going to
in W Comico County we're going to have
seven districts no at large and the
Board of Education districts will mirror
the county council's districts now this
still Mike you and you spoke about this
uh last week's meetting this still has
to go back in front of the judge for a
final approval right uh that's my
understanding that after the the parties
to this uh suit come to uh preliminary
agreement that will have to be endorsed
by the judge I believe through what's
called a consent
decree well and and at the next County
council meeting they actually have to
move this money from the general fund
from from the taxpayers fund yes to pay
for this so I think there's also a
chance if if if someone wanted to you
know the February 18th meeting you may
get more information about how this was
going to you know be tied up buttoned up
you know so that we know that it's we're
at the finish line and it will come from
the general general fund the insurance
coverage will not pay the the fees that
are the fees and costs that the NAACP at
Al is is requesting well I want to talk
about one other uh topic that came up uh
in this segment uh during the public
comments a lot of folks came to the
podium and talked about the biodiesel
facility on uh Hickory Mill Road and
Atkins Road uh there wasn't a lot of U
understanding it's not as if the County
Council or even the executive approved
this it was permitting from the Maryland
Department of environment um you know
you live in a neighborhood that a little
over a year ago you all were were
blindsided by some information you
didn't know was happening uh without
permits uh what was the sense of the
folks who came up to the podium to speak
you know obviously I think all of them
spoke against this I can only describe
them as being livid and I certainly
understand you know considering that
it's a good word there's uh you know the
potential for uh groundwater
contamination um people being exposed to
various pollutants in in their homes
many of which are very very close to
this uh to this site uh I I very much
sympathize with them they were they were
pretty angry and spoke out very
vociferously this property is not zon
for such an operation Raj cathia lied to
the county about his intent for this
property however the state didn't
communicate properly with the county and
this guy was given his building permit
before he ever technically owned the
property
though the county sent a letter saying
this property wasn't for appropriate use
the County's Planning and Zoning allowed
his request for appeal that makes no
sense this property is in a neighborhood
with approximately 80 nearby homes well
there's two key aspects uh for this
right now one there's been a stop work
order issued uh so at least work at the
site should should cease for now uh on
March 27th which is a Thursday the board
of appeals uh now this is not Planning
and Zoning Planning and Zoning is their
own board this is the board of appeals
or you would appeal a zoning variance is
having a meeting uh 6 PM in room 301 uh
this is a this is a committee that only
meets when necessary obviously it's
necessary um the there's not been an
appeal filed yet the the owner of the
property has until the end of February
to file the appeal but if and you we
would assume that they would they've
spent $7 million building this facility
uh the the it would go to the board of
appeal so anyone out there who has a
opinion about this or stake in this at
room 301 or 6m Thursday March 27th big
day so in our next segment I'd like to
talk uh you know another big topic uh
was uh about councilman Shane Baker I'd
like to spend a little bit of time
really kind of uh talking about just
exactly what happened to him and what
resolution where he's at right now so
will you stick around with us absolutely
all right so when we come back we're
going to discuss the rest of the County
council meeting
so stay with us we'll be right
back welcome back to open Agenda I'm
your host Joe White I've asked Mark
Carrol from sharptown to join us for
this segment uh gentlemen I want to talk
a little bit about the the the situation
that came up with councilman Shane Baker
uh it seems like his name's been run
through the mud and I know both of you
have experienced with this uh Mike you
know Shane talked about this uh in in
his comment on January 21st I'm I'm at
home and I can tell my ex-wife is rather
upset somebody had called her and wanted
my life 360 location well me being a
retired deputy sheriff I find that
disturbing I wanted to know who called
her she tells me it's Deputy Keith
Newton with the Worcester County
Sheriff's office so I immediately did
the right thing I contacted Wester
County The Command Staff didn't want to
get involved they said look he's got a
right to call your ex-wife nothing we
can do about it I sent him a text
message I said
listen if if you continue to contact and
harass me and stalk me I'm going to tell
your wife some things that you're
probably not going to want me to tell
your wife so then a then a battle starts
to pursue text and he makes the comment
he goes you know what you're overdue for
a peace order and I told him via text I
said just make sure when you go in there
and swear under oath that you tell the
truth because you got to swear under
oath to get a peace order every time you
testify in in court you got to swear
under oath because I knew I hadn't s
anything threatening on the 22nd I
started getting all these texts from all
my friends all these phone calls man
you're in you're in trouble you got a
peace order and I'm like what they're
like yeah it's all over Easter Shore
under cover so people start sending me
screenshots you know they're trying to
locate Shane Baker and w County
Sheriff's offices and W
Comico kind of way I took it implying
I'm on the run I've been made aware that
there's a court date at 9:00 I'll be
there the deputies can serve me when I
walk in contact my attorney he says look
you probably need to be there in the
morning for this hearing that's the
temporary so I set my alarm clock for
4:00 wasn't expecting to come home that
early my attorney tells me so as do
other fellow law enfor enforcement off
officers that work in the courthouse
said look 99% chance it's going to be
granted most of the time they Grant the
Temporaries until it goes to final go to
the final hearing and lo and behold the
judge says and I don't want to misquote
it that there was no evidence for either
one of them the disturbing part or at
least it disturbs me probably will
disturb you guys too I noticed on the
peace orders it look like the same
handwriting on both now now I'm not a
hand writing analysis guy and I can't
say the same person filled out them both
but I picked up on that I'm like looks
like both same person and then as I'm
talking to my attorney I'm like some of
these things in here aren't
true and he had to swear under oath and
he's a current deputy sheriff at wer
County Sheriff's Office and uh it it
came out in court we had six or seven
hours worth of court and I was able to
produce every text and he said this was
said this said and I'm like here's
here's the proof look at it all in all
that day Mr Earl Campell is there to
testify on Keith Newton's behalf retired
law
enforcement Bob Harris who is the chief
of police for the town of Pittsville
shows up in uniform sits down beside
Keith now I wonder why he would do that
looks good to have a cop sitting beside
you one would think well why don't you
file a complaint on him I'll show you
how politics works that was put on
social media that person that's Bob's
boss this was before before I had my
final peace
order so why I call Bob's boss what do
you think he's going to tell me is that
this individual that's filed to run for
County Council too I've heard that he
has said yeah what is his title is it
Town commissioner Town commissioner but
he's also Ocean City police officer oh
yeah he is he's also a police officer
ladies and gentlemen well they didn't
even let let Mr Campbell testified they
said he had he had no information to
provide Ben Parsons now these guys are
current two of them current Deputy
sheriffs so we went through the court
hearing and you know I was I was
appalled that um Bob Harris would come
in there in
uniform um not testifying for something
for the town of Pittsville not
testifying for something for in his role
he came there in uniform to testify
with Keith Newton so it comes out in
court that uh we wanted to know why did
Mr Newton want to know my
location he says JC Richardson called
him JC Richardson's a former deputy says
they JC Richardson called me and wanted
to know your location now I want people
to start connecting the dots it's all
over with it's thrown out of court but
it's concerning that there was false
information put in that peace order and
he swore under
oath this guy's considering making a run
for Sheriff of wakako County look at the
connections Mr Campbell again the and
these are facts I can prove this
anything you all want to see I can see
Mr Campbell campaign contributor to a
certain
individual Mr Richardson campaign
contributor to a certain individual Mr
Richardson know knows that Keith
Newton's contacting my ex-wife and asked
for my life 360
location ladies and gentlemen these are
either retired cops or current Deputy
sheriffs or or chiefs of police and I
find I find this very concerning that
this happened now I made a decision
because I just wanted to get away from
it I know Worcester County Sheriff's
Office knows about this I know they know
and I was going to go down there and I
was going to file a complaint because
there's something in law enforcement
called the braid being
braided so if I go to court and I get
caught lying in court and I and they can
prove it and I'm
Brady that always has to be disclosed
every time I testify and pretty much it
ruins your police career because you're
not a credible witness I've been through
enough uh Mike m Mike Goldberg back
there's been through enough several of
these councilmen have been through
enough and it doesn't stop I mean prior
to this when I did work at Wester County
I went through two internal
investigations both exonerated connect
the dots and I'm not going to go into
who filed and all that but all these
dots keep getting connected but it did
cost me
$44,000 that's what it cost me cuz I
wasn't going to go in there unprepared
um in the past two years I've seen at
this point countless examples of
retaliation against council members
County employees
whose opinions don't align with somebody
else's I don't know we're three four
five peace orders I've lost count
there's accusations of bribery conflict
of interest corruption Charter
violations uh council members have had
hate mail sent to their homes the
executive statement on that was you need
to take that with a grain of salt I
think the term lawfare was used earlier
tonight I I agree with that he he had a
temporary peace order approved against
him and then he had to go in front of a
permanent uh for a permanent hearing can
you explain to me a little bit about
what is a temporary peace order well a
temporary peace order is uh can be
issued after the initial interim peace
order within two days so two days later
uh uh Mr Baker had to appear in court
for a hearing for a temporary peace
order the temporary peace order was
granted has a very low threshold of
evidence if the judge is at all
concerned um based on very little
evidence that a threat potentially
exists then the hearing for the
permanent peace order uh was held a week
later and there is a higher standard of
evidence for the for the permanent peace
order you have to uh meet a threshold of
a preponderance of evidence so there's a
full hearing on that that in this case
Mr Baker's case took all day well what's
a what's a typical cost of of a of it it
it varies it you know it depends on you
know your attorney uh it can you cost
anywhere from a couple of thousand bucks
flat fee up to you 5,000 or even more
just depends on your attorney how busy
he is and how much money he thinks he
got in your pocket well and and and
whether you're guilty or not it's that
it's that F yes it's a flat fee so Mark
uh before we get into Shane's uh
situation I mean you've come under
attack from the executive and the
executive's office yes uh you know
explain a little bit to folks like just
what was that feeling like like what
what was the question you were asking
yourself um well it was difficult and
for anybody who who isn't aware um our
Recreation and Parks Department just
raised questions about how a park was
being planned the West Metro West Metro
Corp two years ago yes the the county
executive did not like that we were
asking questions uh so she had a private
meeting with the president of the
Commissioners uh sharptown uh and tried
to intimidate him into firing me from
the from the volunteer position that I'm
in uh she actually showed up to our our
next meeting okay uh which is very
unusual for a county executive to show
up to a local Town recreation meeting uh
and she upset everyone was very
argumentative uh told everyone in our
meeting um that the county was not going
to support sharptown anymore um that we
had poisoned the well uh is the term
that she used over and over again um and
it was uh it was very distressing for
everyone she accused us of uh falsifying
our minutes to establish a narrative did
you falsify your minutes okay uh but I
will say have you ever no and I I take
such accusations so seriously so the
accusations made against you were untrue
but it was really up to you to prove you
know basically your innocence and yes
and and that influence from the
executive's office was used right at the
core of your support group right yes and
I don't the the most troubling part is
that uh I kept expecting something to
happen like someone to to stand up for
us or stand up for me and and come in
and say well you can't you can't go into
a public meeting and accuse a group of
people of falsifying government
documents you can't try to have a
volunteer fired from their position for
not doing anything wrong other than
having an opinion um and it never
happened so you're literally looking for
accountability yeah and you know for a
while I I stopped talking about it for a
while uh and I still don't talk about it
that often because it in a way I guess I
guess it worked because it it felt like
no one cares and it was like the more I
wanted something to happen the less
likely it was to happen so I just I I
let it go and with these situations here
my hope is that you know as this is
going up the chain more people are
paying attention and maybe more people
will care you know uh I'm a nobody you
know and then when she's going now she's
going after council members and things
like that maybe people will start caring
cuz this isn't going to stop well if we
talk about some accountability Mike I
want to go back to your situation before
we we we Circle back to councilman bers
uh I mean a peace order was put against
you back in the summer and you had to
defend yourself I did um and and the the
process of that came out the same this
one was withdrawn it was withdrawn
because there was indisputable video
evidence that what was alleged never
occurred so in that situation is has
your has your case was it tried like
through social media I mean you know we
we we reference very often this uh this
agreement that the county executive has
with Eon Shore undercovering Earl
Campbell uh and although many folks in
the county are blocked from seeing his
Facebook he is
contractually signed with the county
executive to disseminate information uh
you know in in your case in councilman
Baker's case is there a a similarity to
to how the the public information was
coming out absolutely and with respect
to Eastern Shore undercover uh in
relation to my case he certainly
reported a lot about it U up until the
time that it was well it was never
finally adjudicated because the peace
order was withdrawn on the day of the
hearing for the uh for the permanent
peace order um I wrote to uh Earl
Campbell the proprietor of uh of that uh
tabloid uh Facebook page p and advised
him of the outcome so that he could not
claim that he was unaware of the outcome
but it was never reported uh in Shane's
case uh Mr councilman Baker's case he
did actually reported three days later
it didn't come out until Monday I
believe when the his hearing was the
prior Friday um it was reported on his
Facebook page it was not reported on his
Reg web page though so and it was buried
on the on the on the Facebook page and
he brings up in in his in his comments
at the at the council meeting on Tuesday
uh and you were at his hearing yes well
um they were sworn police officers right
I mean these are folks who were
testifying against him they were did any
of them have actual knowledge of any
threats that Shane made or was this more
of a character assassination it was a
character assassination in my opinion
there was a lot of hearsay there you
know many of them posted on Facebook and
what's particularly disturbing about
their posts is that there's that onewe
period between the hearing for the
temporary peace order and the permanent
peace order so the case was still being
adjudicated and yet they are making
public statements on social media that
could have potentially poisoned the well
a bit I think that was entirely
inappropriate and one of the witnesses
who is a police officer appeared in
uniform uh as a witness now this is
entirely inappropriate unless he's there
as a witness in a case that he's
actually involved in in other words if
he had investigated the criminal act
then it is appropriate for that police
officer to appear appear in uniform this
had nothing to do with that essentially
he was a character witness and I do
believe this was done intentionally in
order to try to sway the judge um an
officer in uniform does uh have on the
surface at least some credibility Earl
Campbell was also there of Eastern Shore
undercover to testify interestingly
after he began after he was sworn in the
judge decided not to permit his
testimony because he had absolutely
nothing relevant to say in in direct
correlation to this case in in
correlation to this case and ultimately
this it was the peace order was denied
the peace order was denied has that
stopped the social media flow of
misinformation from coming out against
councilman B absolutely not there
continues to be a great deal of chatter
on social media uh and what's very
disturbing is that some of this is
coming from senior County employees who
report directly to the county
executive um so the the reign of terror
is uh is continuing well so in
councilman Baker's situation he has
senior executive employees in your
situation you had a senior engineer and
in your case you had the executive go
directly to your your your County
Commissioners or your town Commissioners
uh so is the is the lesson here is that
hey if you if you want to speak publicly
against our current uh executive
government in this County that be
prepared three to $5,000 you better put
a helmet on and a and a flack jacket
because she's going to come after you in
my case she came after me well not
necessarily the county executive herself
but either the executive or her senior
employees have tried to have me arrested
with no calls um and uh of course you
know with respect to the um the
accusations of of assault were provably
untrue due to video evidence from pack
14 so uh and they've done the same thing
to councilman Baker several times all
the same group of people in the same
Circle that are in low earth orbit
around the county executive and it's
very disturbing that we have to deal
with our government like this you know
it said that when when the people fear
their government there's tyranny when
when the government feel fears the
people then there's Freedom yeah yeah
what are we going to say Mark I was
going to say truth is the first casualty
of lawfare yeah no doubt no no
doubt welcome back to open Agenda back
in the studio with us is Dr venosa
thanks for coming back thank you so
gentlemen you know we we talked about
the Shane Baker case and and we've we've
had a chance to hear about some other
stories whether it's uh you Mike or or
from Mark Caroll but what do we need to
do about it Joe I mean where do we stand
right now and and what do people out
there who are watching this what do they
need to know to do well I think the
county really is at a at an important
Crossroads we have a real crisis on our
hands that to some extent goes unnoticed
until you you get hit by it um we have
had numerous numerous private citizens
and now elected official offals who have
been directly targeted and have had
local government weaponized against them
for the mere Act of questioning speaking
out on issues and voicing concerns about
certain topics and if I'm looking at it
as somebody who wants to live here who
wants to move here who wants to invest
here then the crisis that we face right
now in W Comico County isn't just an
abstract thing it really requires
citizens to get involved in a way that
they perhaps haven't had to before for
every councilman Shane bacer that's been
targeted there have been numerous other
private nobodies private citizens right
who have had to deal with the current
crisis that is happening because of the
executive system and specifically
because of who the current County
Executive is we are at a point in which
there are legitimate fears I would say
for people's personal safety absolutely
simply because of how local government
has been weaponized and those concerns
and
those realities are not going to get any
better until more of the public gets
involved so Mike when someone says to
you that freedom isn't
free uh and and in the experiences
you've had uh especially this past
summer beyond the the dollars and cents
sign what else does it cost you what
does it cost you as a private citizen
well you know you pay a price you in
many different ways when you stand up to
power it's going to cost you money it's
going to cost you time I've spent a heck
of a lot of time this past year trying
to stand up up to the um actions of this
County Executive and you also wind up
living your life always looking over
your shoulder never knowing just what
kind of a stunt is going to be is going
to happen to you next you you just don't
know you have to be aware um we're doing
our best on this show to help make the
public aware uh that there is a threat
to your safety to your very freedom and
well-being we need folks to come to
County Council meetings don't pay
attention to social media because all
you're going to get is a bunch of biased
opinion I most folks simply don't
understand the issues they don't
understand the facts um you know
keyboard Warriors are of you know very
little social value on social media but
see what's actually happening at the
meetings become a part get active and do
something to help defend your friends
your neighbors throughout this County I
think uh opinions don't cost very much
and they're easy uh taking the time to
either come to a meeting um you don't
have to speak if you come but you could
even before you come you can watch it on
pack 14 absolutely uh and I could I
could I could say you know being being
close with you and being at your hearing
for when the peace order was withdrawn
uh watching still even to this day that
there's repercussions you know whether
it's through social media or just just
the changes of how you live your life
thinking about councilman Baker who's
who's you know a retired County sheriff
or deputy sheriff uh an elected public
servant and and to know that that his
case although it was it was denied he
was he was also tried in the course of
of the court of public opinion you know
and it's still happening even though his
his case is adjudicated sure they're
dragging him through the mud they
continue to drag me through the mud and
and others as well Jo Dr venosa I want
to say one more thing you know we're not
asking anyone to have the same political
belief as us we don't have we don't
share the same political belief system
uh we're just asking people to be
open-minded and find the facts for
yourself to to your point um I think
when people look at on individual levels
when they see somebody being attacked
slandered when they see an unjust act it
it kind of TAPS into something that I
think most decent people unless you're a
sociopath um have um in that it appeals
to the better angels of your nature you
know so if I see this man I don't know
him but he's being wronged or hurt I'm
going to hopefully find it within me to
help him and I think one of the good
things about what we've been involved in
is that we've we've come together we've
become really good friends and we rely
on each other in in in many ways in part
because we've responded to a crisis into
an injustice and I think if more people
become part of that then
that Dragon will be slayed so to speak
slowly slowly slowly it doesn't happen
overnight it's you have to you know
Freedom isn't free but it also isn't
quick it is definitely not quick and
evil will prevail when good people don't
stand up to it correct and so I
encourage everyone to stand up well well
thank you for watching this episode of
open Agenda we'll be back next week with
another new
episode I know what I'm doing man
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