Hi, and welcome to this week's episode
of Open Agenda. With us in the house
from Parsonsburg, Mr. Joe White.
>> Thank you.
>> Welcome back, sir.
And from Salisbury, another Joe, Joe
Scafino. Thanks for being here.
>> Yeah, morning.
>> Yeah. So, uh it is budget season,
obviously. Uh always interesting, always
dynamic, uh kind of a fluid situation
depending on the topic within the budget
and the priorities.
Um there's been several work sessions
the last month or so that the public uh
hopefully has watched, but of course
we're going to be here today to break it
down and and sort of distill some of the
key points. Um there are some big things
that have come up that are priorities
and concerns. And um if it's okay, Joe,
I'd like uh to bring in Jim Atkins on
and uh get into some of the specifics of
of what has been discussed at those
sessions. I'm going to talk about it
with Joe, and then can we bring you back
on to kind of give your general
perspective as a city resident as to the
process?
>> Yep.
>> Cool. Joe, you cool hanging out with
>> Oh, great, yeah.
>> We're talking about budgets and dollars
and cents, I know that besides it, so.
>> it doesn't excite me, but I'm happy to
do it.
>> have calculators, but we have you and
Jim Atkins, so that's All right, thank
you so much. So, stick around and we'll
be right back with the next segment of
Open Agenda. See you soon.
Welcome back to Open Agenda. With us in
the house are our budget gurus.
>> [laughter]
>> Among other things.
>> We don't have our pocket protectors on.
>> not not yet. Not yet. No, but but you
have all been seen using them in the
past, so that's good enough for me. So,
from Ardella, Mr. Jim Atkins, welcome,
sir. And of course from Parsonsburg, Mr.
Joe White.
>> Thanks for having me on.
>> Thanks for coming back, everybody.
So, uh
it is budget season.
>> Yeah.
>> in the thick of it. Uh it's my
understanding that there has been at
least uh three specific budget sessions
and then a recap. There was a session on
May, excuse me, yeah yeah, May 11th,
12th, 15th, and then a recap on the
22nd. And they've all focused on
specific aspects of the budget.
>> Good morning, Pam Oland, finance
director. So, I provided some
information
late yesterday to the council
in regards to some outstanding
questions.
So, the outstanding items that I had
from the last meeting was
um fire,
executive,
um the surveyor, the the new positions
in public works, and solid waste. That
was the outstanding items. Oh, and um
Verizon building. So,
whichever one council is interested in
tackling first, um
we can go from there. And if there's any
additional other questions, then I can
attempt to answer them.
>> Um can we maybe briefly talk about or
maybe broadly talk about um what's the
general trend line of those meetings and
the status, and what questions should
the public be asking, or what things
should the public be aware of as these
discussions have developed?
>> each of these sessions they're they're
they're just public work sessions. So,
there's no opportunity to speak, but it
is a great chance to go look and listen,
whether you can be there in person or on
Pack 14. They usually come up a couple
days later.
Uh they're not filmed Those aren't
filmed live,
but they they take four departments,
generally speaking. There's no rule, but
generally there's four departments. They
spend about a half an hour. They'll
bring in the department heads, the
county executive, or or somebody from
her team is there. And it's a great
chance to really listen to the county
council and their questions, cuz they
can't really raise the budget, but they
can cut things out. And the county
executive has proposed a budget that's
237 million, which is
a little over a 10% increase. So, you're
looking at raises ranging from 5% to
There's been discussions that some
people getting 20% raises,
whether it's in the fire service, or
whether it's with collective bargaining.
You you you get a chance to to take it
all in
and then get a recap that just allowed
the council to say well if you're
thinking this
we're thinking this and it gives it's a
good public way for folks to see how the
negotiations work.
>> Yeah, sort of like the organs of local
government in action.
>> It is it's not fancy but at the same
time when you're talking about your tax
dollars this is this is your elected
officials at work and I I've it's been
great to see it.
>> [clears throat]
>> What do you think sir?
>> Uh yeah.
You can gain a lot of information out of
it. You can get very frustrated from it
also.
>> Yeah.
>> And and the fact that uh
some of the things that they propose and
talk about doing and last uh Friday at
the recap I mean we haven't passed the
budget yet.
And it
got to be done the the second meeting in
uh June.
We haven't passed the budget yet and in
the recap they're talking about well
we'll come back in August and September
with an amendment to the budget.
>> We've been here before.
>> Yeah, you know so
>> Talking specifically about the Verizon
building.
>> Based on that list if you all have that
it would be the Verizon building.
We're going to revisit this or make sure
we firm up what what prior discussions
we had. I believe the original idea from
the last meeting was that bless you was
[clears throat] that we were going to
remove it until we felt there was more
substantial um
means by which to
>> [clears throat]
>> validate having a making that type of a
commitment of 3 million.
>> Any comments?
>> Yeah, I just would like to make a
comment. I've
called around and got some information
just generally about how to approach
this process
and Steve I'm looking at you but
um you know
in lieu of the 495,000 which you
admitted is a is a high price. I think
we all would say that and and I'm sure
that is a 100% design. That's what that
would indicate and that's probably okay.
We could probably shop it out and get a
little lower. However,
uh and I'm throwing this out as an idea.
I'm not saying I've got the answer, but
there is something much in between, and
that is a conceptual design,
>> [clears throat]
>> or my friend in the contracting business
and and you've heard of this, like a
25-30% design. I don't know what the
price tag is, but it's much lower.
>> You brought in an addendum to the budget
a month after you approved the budget.
Then apparently you didn't have your
your act together when you put the
budget together.
>> But I But I also I I mean there's
another side of this. And and I feel
Jim's frustration here.
But I don't want to see him rush and
start writing blank checks for health
department renovation. And then And then
I know you don't either, necessarily.
But there it it's been a couple years,
and we don't have a good plan.
>> Right.
>> And when you hear that this could cost
between 3 1/2 and 8 1/2 million.
>> Yeah, that's quite a range.
>> That's a That's a pretty delta. I I mean
>> So, there is a conceptual design already
done. The conceptual design though is
kind of the um
highest level wish list. So, we've
already paid for that, and that's where
we got the $8 million. There was an $8
million number for approximately to do
the whole thing. And we're like, "No,
no, no. Not happening." That So, we're
back to the drawing board. We can go
back and do another conceptual design
with it cut back cuz it was doing That
was the design that he has shown kind of
in the pictures where it's all the
different So, again, we don't have a
conceptual design of the current plan
that we want to move forward with. So,
we can look at that, and
again, I'm looking for a council
guidance as to what budget amendment
you're looking for. If the budget
amendment is $3 million, the budget
amendment $3 million. I just need to
know what it is. We will do what the
council
um
is looking for at this point.
>> Well,
the plan should have been made. And it's
just like the the fire service. I mean,
you know, you you got the Salisbury
Fire Department coming in there
to
address the council about the budget.
The council can't do anything about the
proposed budget for the Salisbury Fire
Department.
>> can't raise it at all.
>> They can't raise it.
>> Well, you're you're you're talking about
the debate between the executive and the
mayor.
>> Yes.
>> In presenting it in front of the council
about the fire service.
>> Yeah, well, I mean, a council cannot
raise it. So, all they can do is is
approve it
or recommend decreasing it, but there's
no need of coming in there talking about
it because they can't do anything about
it.
>> So, let's step back just for a minute
cuz you've gotten into something I think
is really important. So, from your
comments earlier, Joey, you stated that
basically, in the broad sense, we're
looking at this year about a 10%
increase in the overall budget. The
majority of that, as is always the case,
tends to be personnel, right? In terms
of
>> No, no. No, I don't think so.
>> In terms of the
>> No, you're talking mostly about a 5%
increase.
>> Uh a lot of the increases actually
one-time capital expenses that are not
being bonded.
>> Okay.
>> They're actually being paid out of
pay-go. I think this is actually a
positive thing.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> So, this is actually I think how you
want your county government to work. We
brought in more money than we thought
last year. We have some of these
projects that are on the back burner.
>> And we're investing in them now.
>> We're investing in now, but to Jim's
point, he's saying, and and I agree with
him, you still need to have a solid
plan.
>> Yeah.
>> It's frustrating that we're about to
pass this budget and we still don't have
it, but it sounds like they're going to
pull some of it out and then add it back
as an addendum, and I think that's what
he's frustrated [clears throat]
at.
>> Okay, but but to go back to Jim's
concerns, cuz that's where I kind of
wanted to sort of go with this
conversation because you you've talked
about sort of the broad macro trends
with the budget, but you each have
brought up specific concerns you have.
So, I guess if I'm asking as Joe Public
to both of you as private citizens, what
are your biggest concerns about the
budget? Now, you brought up the fire
service agreement, not so much as an
issue with the budget, but the fact that
it's sort of being brought into a budget
session where it has no place.
>> Where it can't be that where it can't be
done anyway. My My biggest problem
>> Yeah.
>> and I'm sure Joe will get into a lot of
the the
high-dollar problems.
This is my problem with this budget. And
it's the same problem I had last year
with this budget.
You've got administrative people coming
in there
and they're looking
between 15 and 20% raises for these
people.
>> Right.
>> They're giving the working employees
5%.
So, at the last council meeting or
budget review on Friday, they talked
about they agreed, okay,
we're going to we're going to max out
the raises for the administrative people
at 9%.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay, that sounds good.
Here's my problem.
You're an administrative person, you're
making a hundred thousand dollars a
year.
>> Mhm.
>> You just got a nine thousand dollar year
raise.
>> Yeah.
>> If you're the the roads guy, the trash
guy, or whatever out there working,
>> Mhm.
>> and let's be generous. Let's give them a
fifty thousand dollar year raise.
>> Right.
>> They got a five thousand a five percent
raise. They got a twenty-five hundred
dollar raise. Why is that person that's
sitting in that office worth nine
thousand and the person who's out there
doing the physical labor and everything
only worth twenty-five hundred? The the
gap between the two of them keeps
expanding. Now, the council did to their
to their credit
>> Reined it in a little.
>> Yep. Well, they talked about whether it
be another Bolton study or another
company besides Bolton coming in and
getting these salary ranges straightened
out. But, you can't keep giving a higher
end
raises that are double what you're
giving the working people.
>> I'm smirking only cuz you know where I
work.
>> Yeah. Well. [laughter]
>> I I I feel that
So So it would seem. But, um
>> What do you think, Jim?
>> Well, my specific issue, especially when
you're talking about raises, is is is at
times they've talked about giving the
emergency services folks
a raise higher than 5%.
And they And look, for where their
starting salaries are, they do need
this. I mean, I I I agree with giving
our our sheriff's department the money
that they needed to to recruit and
retain people.
But, we're going to run into the other
end. That the dispatchers, who send the
sheriff's department and ambulance, they
are
I'm worried about them not having the
resources they need to to hire, train,
and retain good people.
I don't want to see this turn into a
political football.
When you look back at the fire service
agreement, and I'll tie this together
here in a second.
The mayor came in and talked about where
he wanted the number. The county
executive, she did her She did what she
needed to do, which was turn in her
budget number on time, okay?
Yes, the mayor is talking to the council
about, "Hey, I'm not happy with this
number." But, what he was His message to
the council was, "If this is the number,
whether you done it, which they can't
really control it, or it's the
executive,
we're not going to serve the county part
of the Salisbury fire district next
year."
That gives me a concern.
>> Because of the the mayor coming in and
saying, "If this is the number that you
agreed to,
>> Get ready to
>> fine. We will spend the next year
teaching you how to transition
>> phasing out here.
>> because we're not going to be there a
year from now."
>> Right. So, then if you circle that back
to Jim's point about the the executive
leadership getting 9% raises.
>> Yeah, is it just the time?
>> Well, hey, maybe it is, but let's make
sure we have all the eyes dotted and all
the T's crossed.
And I don't think you need to bring in
someone like Bolton. I think it just
takes someone with some business sense.
And and maybe some of this seems to be
obvious to me because this is what I've
done a lot on the golf course or in in
the restaurant business and I know
you've run your own business.
But you you you have to at least address
where your strengths and weaknesses are
going to be and not just keep pushing
them down the road.
>> Yeah.
>> And and you know, they they keep talking
about
performance evaluations.
I don't know if this county has
performance evaluations.
I know they claim they do.
>> [clears throat]
>> But I also know that
I did work in a county department for 5
years and there was never an evaluation.
>> Like a formal one.
>> Yes, where you know,
>> And that's a dangerous thing to
>> Yeah, so [clears throat] everybody gets
the same same raise. You don't you don't
get something for being good. And
>> Yeah, you're just giving a blanket based
on
>> and I think I've always felt that
if you're going to give a blanket
percentage across the board,
that you then need to go to some type of
one-time bonus based off years of
service,
whether it be 10 years you get
>> Mhm.
>> a certain amount of money, 15 years you
get reward people for staying here.
You've got to give them something.
>> Mhm.
>> I I would tell you I had a I had a
chance to to listen to Sheriff Lewis
speak
at one event. He talked about how
they have gone about it in the Sheriff's
office to to give raises
or to for promotions and and you would
get qualified every on a 2-year cycle to
to be in the next round of
promotions.
Now, there may not be a job that comes
up in that time and you have to be
recertified. Um if you're in whether
it's emergency services or public works,
you want to make sure that you're very
best of employees if even if you do give
blanket raises are given those extra
opportunities. And if they're not doing
formal reviews and there's
outside of the sheriff's office cuz it
sounds like they are,
then then there's not a an opportunity
for that. As a as a taxpayer, let me put
my taxpayer hat back on. If we're going
to talk about large increases into the
operating budget, I want to make sure
that we don't step into a structural
deficit years from now.
>> Yeah.
>> We've seen this with the with the Moore
administration.
>> Yeah. I think that's the concern that a
lot of people have voiced as we look at
the growth of the budget and capital
projects and it that in relation to the
state is are we are we in good times
until we're not and then are those not
good times very close?
>> It's called it's called checkbook
accounting.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and I've seen lots of good good
businesses go out of business because
they did checkbook accounting. I have
money in the bank so I must be doing
good.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, you are until you aren't like you
said.
>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Well, this is obviously an issue that is
yet to be finalized and from what it
sounds like even after the budget's
passed, it seems like we'll be in the
season of addendums.
>> Well, you you're going to you're going
to be because as Joe stated, we've got
the Rosen building that after 2 years,
there still is no plan.
>> Mhm.
>> I mean, there's a pie in the sky plan
for what they want to do which is
going to be $8 million and and the
executive has already stated that she
will not support that. So, good for her
on that.
But, you've got that. We've talked for
over 2 years
about
the volunteer fire companies and the
SWAT analysis.
There's nothing in there for that.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, there's
>> They're not implementing it and they're
also not saying we're strategically not
implementing it.
>> Yeah.
>> It's almost crickets and that's
frustrating cuz sometimes the strategy
is to to do nothing, but then you would
state that our strategy is to do
nothing.
>> Now, is that purely because of the
fiscal situation or is that just
politics of an election year?
>> I don't think our fiscal situation is
going to get better than it is right
now.
>> I I agree with that. Yeah, I don't think
it Yeah.
>> yes.
>> If you're not going to do it now, you're
basically saying you're not doing it.
Now,
but no one has said that either.
>> Right.
>> What I would tell the public out there
is June 2nd is the next meeting. It's a
6:00 meeting. It's a it's a night time
meeting.
>> yeah.
>> If if you have a chance, go on and watch
these budget hearings. Uh
call your county councilman. Call the
executive's office and show up to that
meeting. You get at least 3 minutes and
you'll probably get more and other
opportunities to to make your voice
heard.
>> Yeah.
>> But uh you know, don't let them work in
an echo chamber cuz it's easy to do.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Well, gentlemen, thank you for informing
the public. Uh you're always obviously
some of the most diligent people in the
county that focuses on issues that maybe
other people don't always have the time
to do. So, I think this it's a great
service. But uh we're obviously going to
see where this goes very soon.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I speaking of people in the public, I
do want to bring on one local taxpayer
to get their perspective on it. So, uh
Mr. Jim, can I kick you out and I'm
going to bring on Mr. Joe Scaffidi for a
couple minutes and sort of get his
perspective especially as a city and
county resident.
>> I'm going.
>> You're going back to the west side,
friend?
>> I'm going. Bye.
>> Thank you, Mr. Jim. Joe, can you stick
around with us for a minute?
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Thank you, guys. All right, appreciate
the talk. Stick around, we'll be right
back with our next segment of Open
Agenda.
Welcome back to Open Agenda. Sticking
around with us from Parsonsburg, Mr. Joe
White.
>> Thank you.
>> And coming back to us from Salisbury,
another Joe, Mr. Joe Scaffidi.
>> How you doing?
>> Good. So, uh
we've been talking obviously about the
budget,
county, checkbook accounting
addendums, all fun stuff. Obviously,
it's a county issue, but you're a city
guy and a county guy, obviously. What do
you make of the whole situation with
where we've gone with the budget and the
general process?
>> The process [clears throat] so far has
been
uh
transparent. I mean, we've had the
meetings. We've
uh we've seen
how the sausage is made. Um
we [clears throat] may not agree with
with uh some of the flavors. Uh
You know, for example, the
um
as as Joe and and Jim talked about
earlier, uh the white-collar guys and
gals are getting 10% 9 10% raises and
the people doing the work down in the
trenches are getting
much less.
>> And that's after they were adjusted
through the county's
>> Right. And it hasn't been approved yet,
but that that is kind of in the budget
recap, that's where the council and they
you know, was was letting the
executive's team know that's where they
were leaning and yeah.
>> And it's almost like you see this in the
corporate world where where the the the
executives, the CEOs, we know 30 40
years ago, they made, you know, three or
four times the the average worker. Now,
they're making hundreds of times, you
know, the the gap and I think Jim
mentioned that the gap between the the
white-collar guys in the office versus
the guys in the street, it just keeps
getting wider.
And [clears throat] that
excuse me, in my in my opinion, that's
that's wrong.
>> Well, it also brings up other issues of
economics, but also morale.
>> Right, because if you're one of those
people that's been there in roads or
public works or
>> Well, look, I mean, I don't
I'd also I'd challenge one other way of
thinking, too. Think about the
technology that gets used in the public
works department in 2026 versus 1990.
And is you know, you you needed bodies
back in 1990.
Now, [clears throat] you you you need
scientists. I mean, I had a chance to
tour the landfill with uh Deputy
Director Adam Cory over a year ago.
And you know, I'm an environmental
science guy. That is my background, it's
my passion.
And I go in and and I meet Alyssa who
who was brought in to help out with
their testing. And I mean, we weren't
completely in
the specifications from the state. Well,
just imagine on on a state highway or on
the county highways, that you know, the
guys in Giles doing the work out there.
It's much more technical. There's
There's
>> Right. There's more OSHA requirements.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it's not just about having bodies,
it's about having trained bodies.
>> yeah.
>> And uh replacement value of employees is
definitely something you have to think
about. Morale also is another one.
>> Agreed.
>> Yeah.
>> Agreed.
>> Do you But you were saying that you
generally think that the process of how
the budget hearings have gone has been
effective as far as a member of the
public to kind of see it?
>> Yes. Yeah, I'm I'm
>> Yeah.
>> I I think transparency, which is always
a big issue, uh for the most part.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh We can agree on that.
>> agree.
>> I think I think one of the things we
overlook as like regular members of the
public is that, you know, you have such
I don't even want to call it a privilege
cuz really it's your right, I think, as
a citizen and a taxpayer, but you do
have the privilege of local government
of going to see it up close and then
speaking about it. You can't really
always do that at the state level and
certainly at the federal level to say,
"Here's where I think our priorities
should be or here's where my concerns
are."
>> Yeah, I mean, look,
disagreeing [clears throat] in a
democracy is is a privilege.
>> Yeah.
>> And and I I think this is
>> [clears throat]
>> it's it's a wonderful opportunity to
come up with the best plan. But we need
to have all the cards on the table. And
and when they haven't and you know, this
very group here, we've made we've
you know, fussed and fought over details
not coming out till much later and we
still will.
But as Joe said, this budget process has
been much more transparent, even if
you're frustrated by some of the
plan lack of
details in the capital improvement plan.
It could be better,
but the progress is there.
>> I guess the question will be how is this
going to look in four or five, well,
probably maybe five or six months after
the election passes and we get a better
sense as to what Maryland will
be looking like in the coming year.
>> Look, I mean, we we saw Chris Adams from
the local delegation gave his update to
the council first week of May and
right now on the on the table you're
looking at about a 3 billion with a B.
>> Yeah, I thought it was 3.2.
>> Yeah,
structural deficit.
>> So, there's a difference between having
a structural deficit, which basically
means hey, all of our obligations we
already don't have enough money for, let
alone anything extra. You know, we're
definitely not going to Disney World.
We're putting enough food on the table.
That's from the state.
>> Well, and and one of the points he and
others have brought up, too, is that
there's concerns that the state may, for
example, raise the sales tax. Well, to
to to Jim's point about, you know, the
blue collar workers only eating 5%,
that's a regressive tax on a lot of
those folks who are earning less because
now every time you go to a store, every
time you buy anything, you're shelling
out 2% more.
>> I'm so happy to hear you say that
because you know, I'm a
I'm a long time Republican and I don't
understand why why, you know,
the folks in Annapolis
sales tax is a most regressive tax known
to me.
>> So, we agree on something regardless,
but yeah. No, it's a tax yeah, on
working people, yeah.
>> Mostly. 5% mostly. And and why do they
go to that? It just baffles me.
>> Well, I think they go to I'm sorry, go
ahead.
>> No, no, no, I was just going to say, I
mean, it's not even a Republican
Democrat issue. I mean, like you said,
it's it's a regressive tax. And
especially we're bordering a state with
no sales tax, which makes it even worse
because it's hurting the businesses.
Imagine being a business in Delmar right
about now.
>> That's what I'm exactly that's my point.
You look at the four corners of
Delaware.
>> Yeah.
>> You have north, south, east, west and
there's two of them that are heavily
populated with businesses, and one that
has shells of businesses.
>> Yeah.
>> And and we don't have to guess which
which one the road. So, back in the into
the county, we start county, our
conservative leadership, or our
leadership, I should say.
>> Yeah.
>> Our leadership has given us a surplus
and given us uh money in the bank. Yes,
the [clears throat] state of Maryland is
definitely going to be looking at us as
low-hanging fruit, and we need to be
cognizant of that as well with this next
budget.
>> the concern is I've yet to really hear
at the county level discussion a
worst-case scenario. Like, maybe it's
just because
I have that sort of Catholic guilt that
I'm I'm always waiting for the other
shoe to drop, but I I would have liked
to sort of in those discussions maybe
see, just for my own edification,
a more honest discussion of like, what
does a worst-case scenario look like for
Wicomico County if we factor in federal
conditions
and the state conditions, which we know
are going to affect us.
And and maybe that's why the whole idea
of the addendum has been talked about,
too, because I think even after this
budget session, we're going to be
haunted by the specter of what comes out
of the higher authority.
>> Definitely. I mean, look, we we could
definitely say there's some progress
being made at the local level of
transparency, but we haven't seen it
from the state. So, we have to at least
plan for that.
>> Right.
>> And if we're not ready with a solid plan
for things after the horizon, maybe we
should
>> I think that's
>> We should wait till the plan's there.
And if it's another year, fine. If it's
3 more months, then that discussion can
happen then.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I guess we'll see if it's
sooner rather than later.
Well, gentlemen, thank you again for
being here talking about it, and again,
we'll see where things go as they get
finalized in the coming weeks. But, um
again, thank you for helping to inform
and educate the public.
>> My pleasure.
>> And thank you for watching. We will be
back very soon with another episode of
Open Agenda. Take care.