S2 E77 Mayor Randy Taylor Talks of Evaluating Housing First Program

You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our

host, Joe White.

>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host,

Joe White. In the studio with us now is

Jose Capino from Salsbury. Thank you,

Joe. Michael Lanker from Salsbury. I

asked the two of you, I I wanted you to

be on this episode because you both are

so active with the city council, uh,

showing up, watching. I know that you

have, you know, this is not about

political ties. This is about what's

best for the city. You've seen the the

mayor talk about housing first and

homelessness and affordability in

general. I know this ends up being a

political football that the two of you

has spoken so many times so well about

we need to take the politics out of this

and and work on the solutions. I want to

bring in Mayor Randy Taylor and he I

know his letter got leaked about him

re-evaluating housing first and I know

I've talked to him personally about he

may want to expand this or adjust it. He

just wants to make sure they're helping

the most folks and I want to do that

with Mike Goldberg from Delmare because

Mike doesn't go to every meeting and I

want to see if Mike can understand it

and then I want to bring the two of you

back in and just see what you how you

feel about what Randy had to say. That

>> all right?

>> Good. All right, sounds good.

>> So stay with us. When we come back,

we're going to bring in Randy Taylor for

the mayor of Salsbury. We're going to

talk about housing first and the

Salsbury City Council. So stay with us.

We'll be right back.

>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. In the

studio with us now is the mayor of

Salsbury, Mr. Randy Taylor. Thank you

for coming out.

>> Thank you.

>> Mike Goldberg. Thanks for sticking

around.

>> Of course.

>> So we we heard about the the housing

first through the media and through the

last few work sessions at the city

council. We we wanted to get your take

on really what is housing first and how

does that affect Salsbury and and I want

to ask you first where did it even

start? Well, it started was started by m

um Jake Day in a prior administration

prior administration and and basically

an street and housing first was both

start both started and housing first was

started first and then an street came

sometime later and it's somewhat unusual

for a town our size to have this level

of housing you know being handled by the

city level but in fact we that's what

we're doing. Um that said, the housing

first is far less known than Ant Street

and essentially what it's it's designed

to do is be permanent supportive housing

for folks that are previously homeless

to transition to you know fixed housing

and then get permanent supportive sort

of services which we've done a better or

that's a great job of over the years.

The first initial problem we had was in

my view in terms of the program was they

were supposed to be paying a portion of

that of their rent which they weren't

doing. So we we we sort of corrected on

that front and then the next step was

well wait a minute is this the right is

this the right fit for what we're trying

to do in terms of helping as many people

um as we can relative to housing

support. And what I really realized was

that basically we had spent a million

dollars over 10 years to support 11

households. Now there had been various

people that had moved to those

households but

>> but your average was 11 per year.

>> Yeah, we 11 per year. So we started

looking at well critically how can we

how can we do this better? How can we

help more people uh either with the same

amount of money or we have to add some

money and look at different buckets

since that's what we went went down that

that that alley. And so we sent a letter

out basically to say, "Hey, listen. You

know, uh, we're not going to do anything

till 2027." But

>> you mean make any changes?

>> Make any changes in the program, but we

were going to be re-evaluating. And so

in that event, that little period right

there, we had a few people that got a

different voucher and through a

different program and were able to move

along. So that freed up more dollars. So

maybe potentially could help help

somebody else. But anyway, we sent out a

letter saying that, you know, we're not

going to do anything for 20 till 2027

and then we're going to look at how the

housing uh how we could do this better

where we could help more people over a

shorter amount of period of time.

>> Now, one thing you just said is you said

this is a permanent solution. So, so is

the goal of the program not to

transition these folks into paying this

rent to them for themselves or a larger

portion eventually so you can help more

people later or like once you're on it,

you stay on it? Well, that that's what

it had turned into. And I and I think in

some cases there are a couple people

within that the current the current

footprint that'll probably stay that

way. Um but there may not but because

these are very these are people that get

a very low amount of money through a

benefit uh less than $1,000. So it's

it's not a you know they're not a

population that can readily rent, you

know, privately. So what we were hoping

to do is let it become a gateway uh to

permanent housing where we temporarily

provide them housing, provide them

supportive housing and then ultimately

redirect them to a a voucher that's you

know either state funded or or fally

funded.

>> Okay.

>> Um whatever.

>> Not really to stay on the city uh part

part of this, but to then transition to

another organization.

>> Exactly. And then and then of course

that would free up a spot to help help

somebody else. And then as we got into

it a little bit more, we realized that

there's varying levels of of

homelessness and and and reasons why. It

can be mental illness, it can be

addiction, it can be a mental illness

and addiction, it can be, you know, just

an inability to manage over time and it

creates, you know, chronic homelessness.

So, we're looking at all those buckets

and that's what we're kind of using a

taking a step back and saying, hey, wait

a minute. What's the what's the the

level of the problem? What's the

complexity of the problem? And then how

do we address what we're seeing when we

see when we see people hanging out at

the ACT pan and sleeping on the street

over by right aid and that sort of

thing. So you know what we're we're my

administration is looking to do is

actually not check a box that we're

we're doing XYZ but that we're actually

addressing the complexity of the problem

and trying to get a better result. One

of the things Mike and I have covered, I

mean, and we're both fiscal

conservatives as as you are, is what

would what would the program look like

if we start to go through a recession,

and it does seem like a recession is

dawning on on the state of Maryland

anyway. Does that does that impact your

the city's ability to continue to fund

this program?

>> Well, anytime the state's having

problems that that can be have a ripple

effect on the city, but we are using

city funds for all all of this uh this

funding. Um that that you know that said

you know there are plenty of partners

out there that do this probably better

than we do. And I think the thing that

the city could probably do is provide

the asset side or the fixed structure or

whatever the the real estate piece of it

that could help support um agencies to

help support the bigger bigger problem

of homelessness. But if this if the

state grants that are out there, the

voucher systems were to dry up based off

of a a state financial shortfall like

we're like we're experiencing now,

>> right?

>> Would that then put more pressure on the

city and and are you are you trying to

get to a point that you can have some

flexibility to respond to that or are

you really just are you trying to

evaluate the dollar spent now? Well, I

think that's what, you know, why the

people that are benefiting right now

from the program are are worried about

because it's the most, you know, stable.

We're local. We're not as, you know, um,

flexible or I shouldn't say as

vulnerable, say, as the state funding

might be. So, they they want to keep

what they have. And I I agree with that

part. Um, to the to the extent that we

can make it a self-sustaining program,

sure. If we we can get the benefit of

the state, great as well. Um, so or

private organizations or nonprofits,

great too. But it I think understanding

the complexity of the problem and I

don't think you know we get these pit

counts the so-called point in time

counts they're not particularly

accurate. Um so I'd like for us to take

a deeper dive and really look at you

know what what the problem looks like

here in Salsbury and see how we can

help.

>> What's this evaluation process going to

look like? Uh you mentioned to me before

90 days. So what would what would happen

in the next 90 days that would evaluate

this program? Well, we we're working

with a couple different uh local

providers of homelessness and we're

getting a sense of where they are in

terms of headcount whether that's Halo

or that's Christian shelter on down the

line and um we're just trying to get a

sense of what's happening at at in front

of the ACMA who's out in the woods and

we're not doing so-called a pit count so

much as a hard count and trying to

figure out what the real situation is

and because you know people that like

like Christine Chestnut who's with the

city of Salsbury I mean they've got lots

of years of experience. So they've known

many of these people for many many

years.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So what you know ultimately it's the

it's the housing crisis that we're we're

we're facing that's driving this. Uh I

know that you're working on several

projects with the city of Salsbury. You

have you have stuff that's on your on

your plate for the next 12 months to

even beyond the your current term. How

will some of those projects impact the

affordability of housing in Salsbury?

Well, I'm I'm we do have a good pipeline

of housing that's coming to the market.

Um it may not be the type of housing

what we're talking about here. Um when I

was talking about projects in the next

12 months, I was talking more like

infrastructure projects that have been

hanging around that haven't been haven't

been built. For example, Wateride, for

example, Johnson's Dam. There there's a

number of them. Um uh but those are the

ones that I'm looking to bring over the

finish line and get, you know, get going

and get, you know, investments in

Salsbury.

>> Okay. Do you feel like the will the

density change to 80 units per acre in

in downtown will that exacerbate this uh

this affordability?

>> I don't think that I don't really that's

not really a factor in my view in terms

of the short-term housing okay crisis as

it relates to homelessness.

>> Randy, you had uh you know mentioned

around the acme that there are a lot of

homeless people. Clearly from what I've

seen a lot of them are suffering from

mental disabilities. What about group

housing facilities to at least get these

folks off the street where they have

shelter and their basic human needs are

met?

>> Why aren't we seeing that? And why

aren't we seeing any assistance from the

state of Maryland in establishing those

kind of facilities?

>> Yeah. Well, I agree with you. those that

that's the where I think the city could

be of help providing a a fixed asset for

that type of an environment and then

other nonprofits could could you know

support those those assets and trying to

get them permanent housing or at least

out of the weather and and in safe

secure housing.

>> Are the nonprofits or you know um

religious organizations do you feel that

they're making the level of contribution

to taking care of their flock that they

should be? Yeah, I I think there's

there's a there's a percentage of the

population that um become problematic

over time. So they're they're they

become unhousable or they go they go to

the woods. And so that's the challenge.

It's that I think segment of the people

you see on the street which you know you

know and that's coal. We're trying to

get access to an override you know

emergency shelter. Um, but you know,

those are the folks that you're seeing

in front of Acme all night long instead

of the right aid and then, you know, you

know, having problems finding Halo type

or Christian shelter type or hearts and

hands, you know, types of housing.

>> Salsbury City Parade was this past

Sunday. Uh, did you have a nice turnout?

>> It was It was a good turnout and I had a

good time.

>> Was it a little little cold though,

right?

>> A little brisk. A little brisk.

>> You think there's a different spirit in

the air this time of year in the city?

>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, I think everybody

kind of lets themselves be a little bit

more lighthearted during the holidays

and I hope that that lends itself to

maybe some productive conversation. Um,

you know, the departure of Deshawn, the

replacement, um, the the anticipation of

who was going to be in leadership, I

think was creating some angst more than

normal and on top of some things that

were going on inside the city. But I

think, uh, you know, by the time the

holidays actually hit, they'll lighten

up and hopefully we can have some eggnog

and enjoy it. Mike, Mike, you were out

there. I

>> I was and and I just think it's a great

event. You know, it was it's the first

time I'd actually ever gone to the to

the Ssbury parade and you know, not only

were the floats good and you know, all

the kids in the marching bands, but it

really, you know, brings a community

together. You know, you talk to people

that you know, you talk to people that

you've never met before and you make new

friends. A lot of the dignitaries were

there. We saw you there. A lot of the

members of the county councils, members

of the city council. Did you Did you get

to see Santa Claus?

>> I I did see Santa Claus. Yeah. And I

think it was the the real Santa Claus.

We we got to see at the at the last

Salsbury city council meeting on on

Monday,

>> the the swearing of a new council

member, appointed council member to

replace Deshaawn Dowy. And we also saw

an election amongst the council for a

new president.

>> Yes.

>> Uh you were part of that process

>> for council president now open.

>> Yes, Mr.

>> Mayor.

>> Yes. Um, I'd like to nominate

Councilwoman Jackson for the president,

please.

>> Okay. So, we have one nominations.

>> I'd like to nominate Angela Blake.

>> Yeah. Whenever there's a a change in the

leadership, the mayor takes that role

of, you know, of conducting those

ceremonies and I did and uh and so uh

Angela Blake was selected as the new

president and April Jackson the vice

president. So,

>> and you you heard a lot of uh folks

speak at the public comments about the

the lack of transparency over the

appointment process.

>> Member of the Salsbury community, I want

to express my strong belief in the

foundational importance of transparency

in our local election processes.

particularly following the recent

vacancy appointment. It appears that

many in the community were disappointed

that the procedures used to fill the

recent vacancy on the city council lack

the public scrutiny and openness that

builds community trust. You know, there

has to be a procedure to break a tie.

Um I think the charter needs to be

addressed so that in the event of a tie,

who else but the mayor? or another

elected official to make that decision

>> and even the calls for special election.

Do you do you uh do you have an opinion

about whether or not we should change

the charter to to include that?

>> It's interesting as I did the math, you

know, a number of people, three of which

now are on the council in in Angela and

Michelle and in Melissa all came out of

the result of special elections um

>> or appointments.

>> I mean, sorry, sorry, appointment point

election. So, appointments. know I think

we were talking about it this morning

our staff meeting and I was saying that

you know when you lose a council member

you need to fill that position because

it you know it fills out the but the way

maybe to do it is to do an you know do

an appointment but then have a a special

election to follow and that that

appointment may or may not survive it uh

you know depending upon how the election

goes. I think that's probably maybe the

fair way to do it if there's a lengthy

uh term left on their on their

>> Yeah. one one of the one of the dates

put out there was a year uh if there was

more than a year left or even I heard

100 days 100 days isn't even very long

to get an election off the ground so

>> uh were you were you satisfied with with

the way that the the city council

election for the president went is that

>> yeah I mean I think they they voted

their their conscious and what they

wanted to do um let me say it this way

you know I'm I'm happy I'm I just met

Melissa uh and Holland and I think she's

you know she seems very very nice and

I'm I'm hopeful that she comes with open

hands, ready to do some work. We've got

some work to do. Um that said, um yeah,

there was a lot of controversy as to,

you know, her her qualifications

relative to other people and I I think

that's, you know, to be expected. Um, at

the end of the day, I think we probably

do need to make a little tweak in the

way we do do the elections because it

would be a fair way for the people to

speak in the event of

>> well the people in that district clearly

they did not get a voice now who was as

to who was going to represent them and

you know in my view in the event of an

an effort to appoint somebody and there

is a deadlock why doesn't the mayor

able to make the deciding vote if you

take a look at the federal level. You

know, the vice president of the United

States is also the president of the

Senate, but only votes when there's a

tie.

>> Exactly.

>> And, you know, there's been, you know,

so much talk, especially during question

A, that um our local government needs to

more closely mirror, you know, the

structure of the federal government.

Well, here's a necessary piece of that

structure, but it doesn't exist. What do

you think the chances are of a charter

amendment that would give the mayor that

power to cast the deciding vote in this

circumstance?

>> It's interesting. I mean, I think it'd

be worth convers, you know, a

conversation at the at the council

level, you know, and maybe it's a

combination of that. Maybe it's a, you

know, mayor votes in the event of a tie

and then that person does run in some

sort of formal formalized election later

on if that's the to to get the will of

the people, you know, of the people in

the district. Are you are you noticing

any shift in the amount of p public

engagement at the city council meetings?

Is there and obviously sometimes people

are there because they're upset? Yeah.

But are you are you seeing any shift in

the fact that people are saying, "Hey,

look, I'm going to go ahead and get

involved before there are problems."

>> Uh get involved, not so much, but they

speak out for sure. Um they may do it in

various ways. They may come to council

meeting. They may send to tell the

mayor. They may send emails. They may

post on Facebook. They may do a bunch of

stuff. But there there seems to be a

fair amount of people swirling about the

topics that are important to the city

right now.

>> So, what other challenges besides u the

housing first do you do you think are

are high on your list?

>> Well, we we've got a ton of priorities,

you know, like I I've always sort of

maintained from the you know, when I

when I ran for mayor was I felt like the

prior administration was focusing on

problems that we didn't have and and and

uh and and trying to fix problems that

we didn't have and rather and not fixing

ones that we did. So I I've tried to,

you know, kind of do a hard assessment

of where we are and get ourselves back

on the right fiscal foot and it's been a

hard process, you know, to um getting

good information and and uh then you got

now you got the union in play. So that's

that's been a costly, you know, thing

over and above normal operational costs.

So um I'd say, you know, as a general

statement, I think we're in pretty good

shape financially. We've got to make

some hard decisions. I think we're going

to do something very cool within the

police department and we're going to add

a program called flocks which I think is

going to be a gamecher with how how we

do policing and I'll let the chief lead

that the conversation but it's basically

a um a real time crime center where we

have cameras throughout the footprint

along with tag readers and it'll be a

very proactive way to not only prevent

and people selecting not to commit

crimes but if there is crimes that we

>> you better apprehend them quickly. we

have, yeah, we'll get better information

faster. It's a game changer and it's a

it's a force multiplier, but we've got

some exciting things going on. Um, and

you know, more to follow on that topic.

Um, we'll do a state of the city in the

next 30 days or so and we'll kind of

roll out our accomplishments, but a

lot's been going on, you know, and it's

been I I kind of roll below the radar

screen, you know, just because that's my

my style. But uh in January we'll roll

out sort of some

>> and your your next meeting is moved up

because of the holiday and we do have

the holidays coming up but your next

meeting is December 15th. Well, thanks

for coming out. Thanks for talking about

housing first with us. Uh we hope to get

some folks questions answered that have

approached us. But uh ultimately if the

if the next 90 days there'll be work

sessions, they'll be able to go to city

council meetings and catch up.

>> Look look forward to seeing you.

>> All right. Thank you. Thanks for being

>> Thanks for watching this segment of Open

Agenda. We'll be right back.

Welcome back to Open Agenda. Back in the

studio with us is Jose Cavino from

Salsbury. Thank you for coming back.

Michael Anker from Salsbury. So you both

gentlemen got to watch the interview we

did with Mayor Randy Taylor. Uh both of

you are so active in going to the city

council meetings and and I know you were

both present when so many folks came out

to speak against his proposed cuts of

housing first, which are not proposed

cuts. This is a valuation of the assets

that they're using and and and the

number he used in his interview is a

million dollars over the last 10 years.

These are not small amounts of money. Uh

how do you feel, Joe? I mean, do you

feel like this is this is a good time to

go do an evaluation of this program?

>> Absolutely. Um as the mayor said, you

know, it was started by the previous

administration, good intentions. Um but

like any new program it had you have to

step back and evaluate it after a year

or two and and do like a SWAT analysis

you know what are the strengths of the

program what are the weaknesses what

opportunities we have to improve it you

know what are threats that may

jeopardize this program so um what he's

had proposed to do was to have a a year

runway to do just that and then in 2027

implement any changes is and he

emphasized we are not planning to cut

the program. In fact, we might even

increase the funding.

>> Well, Michael, you're you're a property

manager in Salsbury. I mean, this is

part and parcel with what you deal with

every day, right? What when you're

looking at a program that's run by a

relatively small city? I mean, Salsbury

is not Baltimore or Annapolis. Do you do

you feel like having having spent about

$100,000 a year to help out on average

11 families, knowing what you know about

the housing situation in Salsbury, do do

you get the sense that we're we're

effectively making change to help home

some of the homeless people?

>> I think I think that's that's exactly my

problem I think with it is that it's

maybe not the most effective way when

you have people that are like these

vulnerable populations and you're trying

to address somebody with like disability

and stuff. if you're it it is key to

house them and get them housed in place

you know I think an street you know is

part of that effort to get people you

know to a place of stability so they can

build up but then there's an aspect of

like also with an street there's

wraparound services that are needed and

I think like what's lacking in my

understanding is they're just like it's

kind of this people standing on they

know this is the right thing because

there's amount of data that says oh well

it's it is a fundamental truism that

giving people housing first is going to,

you know, end their homelessness

experience and that it's going to help

them build stability and and I do

believe that everybody needs and

deserves housing.

>> But I don't believe that like merely

providing that without any kind of

system in place of accountability or

support, you know, um both

accountability and support, you know,

there's responsibilities and duties,

especially like, you know, I think on

the property management side about legal

liabilities on the part of the the city.

So, it's like you want to be wise about

how you go about making financial

obligations on the part of the city and

how you're helping and serving people so

that they don't just end up in a endless

loop of bureaucracy.

>> You want to make sure you're not just

throwing money blindly at the problem

without addressing, I think this is what

you're saying, the fundamental causes of

that problem and also helping folks get

a hand up and and move out of that. One

thing that he brought up in the

interview that that stuck out to me and

and I think to a lot of fiscal conserv

is is that there was supposed to be an

element of the folks also contributing

towards the rent and he was finding

within the program that some of the

folks were not doing that.

>> So if the program is written that it's

supposed to be a cost share

>> and you have some folks who are doing

none, well then it's simply a handout,

right?

>> That that's all it is. and and and I

would agree with you, Michael, and I

think sometimes this gets lost in the

rhetoric, finding a solution to what is

the root cause of that homelessness.

Now, we we've we've said before some

some people choose to to have it, but a

lot of folks

>> it's a there's a there's a mental

disability or a physical disability

that's causing it that's not going to go

away,

>> right? And I think that we should have a

way everybody has a contribution to make

in our society. I think that's like the

general idea of us collectively having

this experiment.

>> So, one of the questions I have is if

you're if if you're just looking at this

from the city of Salsbury or maybe this

is just an issue for the mayor to figure

out, then you're missing the bigger

picture that this is a county problem to

some degree

>> or to a large degree. And is the city

council part of the solution, the

current city council, or are they or are

they just looking for another way to

rake the mayor over the coals? Because

we we have heard from Councilwoman

Sharon Deile talking about homelessness

and we know that she she's boots on the

ground in that effort herself in the in

the city. But by and large, a lot of

times, and I think this letter was

leaked out, uh the the the mayor was

just trying to start the conversation.

This just seems like to be a political

ploy just to throw him under the bus.

>> Absolutely. That's the impression I got.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And we haven't seen all the county

council meetings, we haven't seen any

collaboration here.

>> Yeah. I I think that that's a missing

element is that like right now what what

we just heard from the mayor was that um

this is all city money. So this is all

like city taxpayer money which is going

to be the smallest pot like the largest

amount of funding. You look at any of

the organizations whether you look at

the the city is not funding SU the state

is the the city's not funding uh it

funds pack 14 in part but the largest

portion comes from the county. So if

there is a to your point if there's a

issue of homelessness in city of

Salsbury it's also in Wcomakico County

and why aren't there revenue streams

coming from county or from the um or

from the state

resources I mean if it's not just money

could be mental health resources

>> personally I I have felt I've said this

for years it's not popular right now

with the crowd of people who are in the

that are very boots on the ground

involved with helping the homelessness

issue but I have said we need a public

homeless shelter. We did we we need like

major cities as we get become larger.

I'm like that would allow us to fair and

equitably get people off the street but

also provide the you know requ have

social workers from the state that are

there that help them case management

services. And it's like I just can't

imagine. I understand nobody wants to

like live in a room, but as somebody who

has been homeless and had to live in a

room and worked myself out of that, it's

like

>> sometimes you have roommates. I you know

what I mean? Sometimes you're in a

situation where it's not your first

choice. But like

>> I mean I live in an apartment now.

That's not my first choice. But like but

I'm not going to be miserable about that

and and and cry that people owe me

something out of that. I I think that we

could be just using the resources better

to help more people.

>> Well, I hope the two of you as you

attend the city council meetings and uh

mayor talked about the next 90 days

going through this process, hope you

keep us up to date and we could have him

back on as well if the time needed. So

>> definitely

>> thanks for watching this episode of Open

Agenda. We'll be back later this week

with another new episode.

Oh

yeah.

heart.

Merry Christmas.

>> It's broken, but edible, I promise.

You don't got my life behind

us behind.

Oh my god.

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