You're watching Open Agenda. Here's our
host, Joe Venosa.
>> Welcome to Open Agenda. I'm your host
this week, Joe Venosa. And today we're
joined by two guests, uh, old friends of
the show, Miss Trish Melvin from
Futland, Maryland, and of course, the
voice of Open Agenda, Mr. Mike Goldberg.
>> Hey, hey,
>> welcome. So there has been in the
community a very big story that I
believe both of you have heard and it is
in regards to the arrest and the
abduction of a local woman, Miss Vanessa
Parazal.
>> Guys, please stop this. I know her.
She's my neighbor.
>> Back, ma'am. Please.
>> I can't get back. I am keeping my
distance, but this is my She's my
neighbor. is illegal and she has
aggravated charges.
>> No, she doesn't.
>> She doesn't have any charges, guys.
>> And that issue was going around uh both
social media and some of the more
mainstream um news stations. Uh we've
been very fortunate uh to have uh two
very close friends of Vanessa uh who are
willing to come on the show and give
their testimony about what happened and
and where things currently stand. So,
we're going to be joined by Miss
Elizabeth Watkins and Miss Sophia
Livingston and and I know that their
testimony on this local issue also
connects to some of the larger ones
which, you know, to to be fair, we often
disagree on to some extent and have
different views. Um, but I'd like to
bring them on uh have them tell the
story, give updates to the community,
and afterward I'd like to hear your
views on it and maybe sort of talk about
how we can connect uh our local
situation to those national trends and
how best do we deal with it. So, would
you stick around and join us later?
>> Absolutely.
>> Let's do this.
>> All right. Stick around and we'll be
right back with our next segment of Open
Agenda.
>> Hi, welcome back to Open Agenda. I'm
your host Joe Venosa. And today I'm
joined by two local residents, Miss
Elizabeth Watkins and Miss Sophia
Livingston. Um, thank you so much for
coming here and for joining us for this
conversation. Um, obviously a lot's
happened the last few weeks regarding a
very specific issue that happened in the
Pinehurst neighborhood, which was an
event in which Miss Vanessa Parazal was
uh essentially abducted by ICE agents
from out of her car in the Pinehurst
neighborhood. Um, could you maybe please
tell us a little bit about yourself and
how you know Miss Pzal?
>> So, my name is Elizabeth Watkins and I'm
a stay-at-home mom of three. Um, Vanessa
and I are neighbors and we have shared a
backyard for close to a year now. Our
daughters are best friends and have been
since the first day that we got to spend
time together.
>> I'm Sophia Livingston. Um,
I'm a mom, too, but I don't I don't stay
at home. Uh, my baby's in daycare. Uh, I
know Vanessa because she married my
brother. could you maybe lay out for us
and for the broader public uh exactly
the course of events that happened that
morning and then what was your immediate
reaction to it?
>> So Wednesday morning um Vanessa and I
both left to take our daughters to
school and we ended up behind each other
in the drop off line which happens
occasionally. Um we were both running a
few minutes late but the kids weren't
late for school um so we were all
rushing in the line. Our daughters both
jumped out of the car at the same time
and they held hands and walked into the
school together. We exited the drop off
line and paused to watch the girls walk
into school.
>> And this is at Pinehurst Elementary.
>> This is at Pinehurst. Yes. We stopped at
the edge of the parking lot at their
stop sign. We smiled and waved to each
other from our cars and we took our
regular path home. We take this path
every single day when we drop our kids
off. We go the same way every day. The
road that we went down was Pinehurst
Avenue and coming from the school there
are two entrances onto that road. We
came from this side and Ice came from
this side. I do believe that they were
sitting there waiting for her. It
happened so quickly that even though I
was right behind her at first I thought,
"Oh, somebody's getting pulled over."
And within seconds there was a swarm and
I just pulled over thinking, "Oh my god,
what's happening?
I realized very quickly what was
happening when I saw ICE on the agent's
vest and I saw them swarm her car the
way that they did. The vehicles were all
untagged and the vehicles looked to me
like civilian cars, which was another
part that added to my confusion.
Immediately, I knew what was happening
was wrong and I jumped out of my car to
record because I knew that Vanessa was
going to need evidence to what happened
to her.
They were tapping on her car windows
with batons, intimidating her. They were
shouting at her to get out of the car.
And as she was screaming for what, they
would give her no response but to yell
louder for her to get out of the car.
>> So, they never actually specifically
told
>> They never gave her a reason as to why
they wanted her to exit the vehicle.
>> They gave you a reason.
They told me that she was a I don't I
don't want to misquote here, but they
told me that she was
>> she's illegal and she has aggravated
charges.
>> She has aggravated charges. Thank you,
Sophie. Yes,
I was more than a car's distance from
the scene as where it was happening.
again recording because I knew Vanessa
would need evidence and I myself had an
ICE agent put his hand on my shoulder as
I was stepping away already.
I was enraged. I was baffled. I was hurt
because I have been raised to trust our
government
>> and I do. And I did believe everything
that was happening was being done the
correct way until I saw with my own
eyes,
what the truth really is. And and not
just saw it with my own eyes, but saw it
happen to somebody so close to me.
>> As she was yanked out of her car, I
realized that she was going to be taken
and there was nothing that I could do.
And I I at that point left to go find
her husband as quickly as I could.
We were minutes from our house. So I
drove home and unfortunately he was not
there and that was when the phone call
started.
>> And this all happened basically within
from what it sounds like a 15 20 minute
period from start to finish.
>> Oh, it wasn't even a I mean we dropped
the girls off at school and I would say
within 2 minutes this was started and
over.
>> The videos she recorded only add up to
be about like a minute
>> and that's the total interaction. I
started recording immediately.
>> And I I know this is kind of hard to
maybe calculate even after the fact, but
you said there was a large group of ICE
agents. How many were there from what
you saw?
>> I haven't gone back to count in the
video, but initially recounting what
happened to my partner who was at home
at the time. I I immediately told him
what had happened. I said there had to
have been at least seven men.
>> And I know that I saw at least one woman
as well. And again, they were on both
sides of her car tapping on both windows
with batons. They were extremely
intimidating.
>> It's It's ironic that it happens. Again,
it happens to many has happened and will
happen to many more people. But the fact
that it happens on Christmas given what
we know about the backstory to the
Christmas holiday. Yes.
>> Makes it a cruel irony, I think, for for
for some of us to to truly.
>> Um,
>> with that being said, I'd like to ask um
And again,
I I understand that there's still
information that has to come out and
that we're still finding the facts even
up to this moment. But, you know,
there's been a lot of speculation uh
about why ICE specifically targeted
Vanessa in our neighborhood, you know,
our Pinehurst neighborhood in that
particular way. Uh and at that time, um
are are you able to speak about that or
maybe ponder why? Unfortunately, until
the case is further resolved, we can
have our personal speculation
and we can point out coincidences that
have happened that lead to our
speculation. But until the case is
further resolved, we we can only
speculate. That is all that we can do.
>> Okay?
>> Because we don't want to mess anything
up for Vanessa.
>> Okay? What we can say is that Vanessa
was targeted according to ICE because of
a charge from 2020
that has been
handled closed. The case has been
closed. What I can say regarding that
charge is that it was not a felony.
She does she has no felonies. Vanessa
has also been involved in family court
since then. Vanessa has had nothing more
than a traffic citation since this
happened. Vanessa is not a violent
person and she never has been.
>> Is the type of person like you could
have like the worst day of your life and
you would go around her and she would
immediately make you smile. Like her
smile is contagious.
>> She has her daughter and her have this
cute little smile that like their face
gets all puffy and they look like
Whoville people.
>> They're twins. You're so cute.
>> Obviously, this has affected both of you
in a very direct way cuz you know her so
well. But one of the things that I saw
at least through social media was an
outpouring of of shock, anger, grief,
and and unfortunately from my
perspective, I think ours I I think some
people were gleeful too depending on
their perspective. But I'd like to ask
you from your experiences, what has the
community response been over the course
of the last few days? Um, and related to
that, you know, to your knowledge,
what's the likelihood that she will be
coming home to Salsbury hopefully in the
near future?
>> I think I think the community response
has been so divided. Like, we have so
much support on this side, like we've
raised over $7,000 for her.
>> Yeah.
>> And then on another side, it's like
people
are so set in their ways, they can't see
past what's wrong with it. they just see
I don't know.
>> And I also think that that mindset comes
from a sense of entitlement.
>> And I don't say that in a negative way.
I don't mean that in a rude way. But I
think that myself included, a lot of
people in this community are able to
have an entitlement that others might
might not be able to as far as well, you
didn't do things the right way, so who
cares if it happened. But that doesn't
mean that we deserve to be sent
somewhere we've never known our whole
life to have our whole life disrupted
right before Christmas.
It doesn't mean any of that. But again,
absolutely on the other side of it, I
have seen an incredible response from
our community that I didn't so much
expect and and I am thankful for. And it
is amazing to see that the community has
pulled together the way that they have
despite the few that do have an
outspoken opinion.
>> It's it's amazing to see the way that
parents from the school have pulled
together.
>> The way that the community instantly
went to protest what happened to Vanessa
to make sure that people knew what was
happening happened and was wrong. That
was beautiful. Beautiful to see. Again,
we have raised over $7,000 which will be
put towards her bond as soon as we do
receive that, assuming we do.
>> Okay.
>> As far as her coming home to Salsbury,
while we would love to say that it is a
great chance and in our hearts we feel
as though it is,
>> I don't think any of us expected this to
happen either. And so
while we do believe we have a great
chance, we have an attorney that we are
working very closely with and we are at
the moment waiting for a bond hearing
date.
>> Okay.
>> That said, with all of the atrocities
that have already occurred, I wouldn't
be surprised if something else happened
that made her unable to come home even
if it was wrong.
>> Kind of reminds me of that expression,
you know, hope for the best, expect the
worst. Yes, absolutely.
>> Yeah,
>> that is what we're having to do right
now. And and we've also at multiple
points been put into a period of limbo
of just not knowing. And that's kind of
where we are right now. Unfortunately,
>> there was like a 2day period. This I
heard I talked to Vanessa myself. We
facetimed on Christmas. Um there was
like a 2 three day period where we
didn't hear from her at all when she got
transported to Louisiana and she had
nowhere to sleep and she was in with men
and women
>> and there was a point during that period
as well where we questioned if we were
going to be allowed to speak to her at
all
>> because we have been given short phone
calls
>> but when the transfer was actively
happening we were under the impression
for a period that once she was moved no
phone calls would be allowed. Mhm.
>> That thankfully has resolved.
>> Yeah.
>> But there has been a lot of unknown in
all of this
>> and that has happened to other people.
There have been some even recent cases
where citizens have been detained for up
to 3 days and have not even been given a
phone call. So I think those fears are
quite justifiable given what we know has
happened.
>> Yes. What do you want people maybe
beyond our neighborhood, maybe
throughout the community, uh, to know
most, not only about Vanessa, but about
why what happened to her matters?
Because it could happen to your family
members and it could happen to the
people you work with. People need to
step back and realize that it's people's
lives that you're you're playing with
people's lives.
And it could happen to you or your
family members or your friends. You
never know who was born here and who
wasn't.
>> And you you you build relationships with
people not based on if they're illegal
or not. You build relationships with
people based on their personalities.
>> Very true.
>> And what you can build with them. And
Vanessa's built her life here. Like we
have built a life here. I think it's
really important that we talk about
what's happening because it could be any
member of our community. Vanessa was a
member of the community who put a lot
into where she lived, who put a lot into
her her child, her home, and she was a
hard working member of our community who
did not deserve this.
>> Like Sophie said, it could be any of our
neighbors, and we're not going to know.
Vanessa has been here since she was 2
years old. She would be going somewhere
that she has never been, that she has
never known, where she knows nobody and
has nothing. And we would be ripping her
from a life that she has built herself
with her own two feet in her own hands.
And I also think that a huge reason it's
important for us to talk about this, as
dramatic as it sounds, is because we've
watched things like this happen in
history before. And when you don't talk
about history, history repeats itself.
>> Or at least it rhymes and it echoes.
>> Yes.
>> Um
it's it's interesting that you you you
brought that up and then you commented
too about its people's lives. I I think
one of the uh kind of the sad realities
and and maybe this is a human
tendency is we often don't think about
issues unless we feel personally
affected or at least when it comes to
our door or our street
>> and that's when it sort of complicates
it for other people because it's one
thing to say well this is what the
policy is but here's what it actually
looks like
>> and I think one of the things is this
doesn't actually solve the broader
issues
>> correct
>> that we have at the national level. All
it does is it creates more heartache at
the local level.
>> It creates heartache and it in reality
creates more issues.
>> It seems like it's going to make a
bigger impact in the coming months
because you know there's several
thousand local residents who were here
on protected status that have had that
taken away. And so now a lot of
industries and local businesses are
going to even have more people who are
effectively robbed of a livelihood which
affects the economy too. So it's you
know one life touches many but but if
you want to be even colder about it you
know one job touches many one role
touches many and then
>> it goes into this bigger picture that we
often don't think about.
>> I do believe that policies need to be
changed as far as again Vanessa's been
here since she was 2 years old.
>> It makes no sense to me. It makes no
sense to me why there's not some kind of
policy in place to make it easier for
her to become a citizen once she becomes
18, an adult.
>> She was brought here without a choice.
>> She didn't choose to break the law
coming into this country.
>> So, she shouldn't be held responsible in
the way of sending her somewhere that
she's never been.
>> That makes no sense to me. that and the
way that she's being treated now
like in the ice facility is just
>> inhumane.
>> Yeah, it that's the only word for it.
She slept on the floor with no pillow
and an aluminum blanket. She just
recently got a cot to sleep on. They've
been feeding her MREs that have been
making her sick. She still can't keep
food down. The water there is dirty. She
can't drink the water.
There's just so many there's so much
like I don't know that I want to know
about what's going on with her. But from
what she's told me, it's
>> these nobody should be treated like
this. No, no matter even in jail, you
have a bed.
>> Even in jail, they separate men and
women. She's the smallest female I've
ever met in my life. Why is she in with
men? Vanessa is 410 and around 100
pounds. I would say Vanessa is small
>> and that does make her vulnerable.
>> We don't think of that aspect of it.
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
>> That's all I've been thinking about.
>> And that's Yeah. As her family and
friends, that's what we are sitting here
thinking non-stop about. But outside
Yes. When you're outside of the
situation, that is the entitlement that
I brought up earlier. It's I don't mean
it in a negative context, but you don't
think about it until it's your family,
your friend in that situation.
>> Well, you two are both great friends and
great members of the community for being
willing to share your story. I know it's
not easy, but we're grateful that you
could come and be with us and talk about
an issue that's not easy for many
reasons, but uh you know, on behalf of
all of us, we're very grateful for that.
Um so, we're going to come back uh for
our next segment. Um, and we hope that
you stick around and we'll talk a little
bit about these issues from a more
analytical way. But, uh, once again, I'd
like to thank Sophia and Elizabeth from
coming out on this issue. Stick around.
We'll be right back with our next
segment of Open Agenda.
>> Welcome back to Open Agenda. Now that we
had the chance to talk uh with both
Sophia and Elizabeth about the situation
with Vanessa Parallel, um I'd like to
obviously talk to both of you again
about uh not only your reactions to the
story, but what were your major
takeaways to it? Um and obviously
there's different views on the broader
issues, but I'd like to spend a few
moments kind of processing that.
>> Quite a compelling story that they told.
Um it's very easy to respond emotionally
to that. I mean, it it got me right
here, you know, I must confess.
>> Um, I think we do need to look at what
the laws are. However, I do believe that
laws should be enforced, but I really
have to question how the law is being
enforced in this case. I I really do it.
Um
I I think the part that troubles me the
most is that uh Vanessa was 2 years old
when she was brought to this country.
>> She did not break any laws. You what law
is a 2year-old going to break? and the
um it's unfortunate that our laws have
not been drafted to accommodate this
type of situation. And to me, the real
bad guy here is an ICE. It's not even
Donald Trump. Uh to me, the bad guy is
Congress. Whether it's been a Republican
or a Democrat Congress throughout my
lifetime, they have woefully failed to
address immigration laws. And I think
it's about time that they do, but I
wouldn't stand on one foot waiting for
them to to do their jobs.
>> What about you, Trisha?
>> You know, the inhumanity of it jumps out
at me. And um the agents knew very well
who Vanessa is, that she was a petite
young female. Um regardless, they
dispatched six to seven agents to take
her. Um which kind of reinforces a
position that we've had that I've had
that local law enforcement does not need
to assist in these matters there. I
mean, if they can send out six people to
capture a young female, they don't have
a shortage of labor in ICE.
>> Number one, uh, another thing that
jumped out at me, and I was so impressed
by Ms. Watkins, Elizabeth, her ability
to think in the minute, get her phone
out and start recording.
And I would encourage anybody that finds
themselves in a similar position to have
the the uh the depth of mind to do the
same thing because she did exactly what
one should do in that situation.
>> And I I completely agree that many
agents to deal with a 100 lb 4 foot 10
woman seems to be a little bit
excessive. And I I've got to wonder what
was Vanessa feeling at the time when
she's suddenly surrounded by, you know,
these men in uniforms who were tapping
on her window, beating on her window
hard enough to break those windows.
Uh it seems to me that it was an
unnecessary escalation of, you know,
whatever the situation was.
>> But it is a civil violation. It's not a
criminal violation,
>> but there I mean from my understand not
understanding but from my thought this
is just my own speakers but that's kind
of the point of why they did it in that
way. Like I I actually think the for
lack of a better term, the cruelty is
the point as far as those images because
it seems as if
the goal is to show sort of maximum
force in those situations
and maybe to some extent to to then
almost hope that those images do get out
for a different reason. you know, as as
much outrage as they engendered for some
as they kind of both inferred, it also
engendered a lot of glee and support
among other people who say, "Yes, this
is exactly what I want to see." And you
know, it's always interesting when the
shoe is on the other foot.
>> And you know, when you have a
circumstance like that and you use
intimidation, that intimidation spreads
out far beyond that particular
circumstance. And you I do find that
particularly concerning. And you take a
look in history and you are an
historian, you know as well as anybody
or better than anybody just how that
type of intimidation has been used to
control entire populations.
>> Absolutely. I I think I don't think it's
it shouldn't be controversial to say
this, but I don't think it's a good it's
a good situation whenever you have an
overabundance of mass government
officials taking people off the street.
I don't care what political system
you're in or your view. That generally
is not a really good indication of the
state of human freedom. Even when you've
got a local woman known in the
community, I mean, I live in the
Pinerest neighborhood. My son went to
Pineurst. When she's talking about those
those car drop offs, that's traffic I've
seen for years. And and to even have
people in the neighborhood maybe to some
extent kind of support not just the
abduction and the arrest, but sort of to
be okay with the tactics and the lack of
due process. I think that's a really for
me a very frightening indication of
where it's going for some people and I
don't know how we get out of the doom
loop.
>> I don't see an end to it. Um with the
big beautiful bill
>> that increase increased ISIS's budget
three times from 10 million 10 billion a
year to about $30 billion a year. So
they are still in the building up phase.
They're adding 10,000 ICE agents. So
already, I mean, if they're going after
a woman who came in the country at age
two,
>> Yeah.
>> she's not a criminal. I mean, this
enormous force is being built up. Once
all the criminals are gone, they go to
people like Vanessa. You know, they have
to keep their numbers up because they
have quotas
>> and that's Yeah.
>> So, what's going to happen once they get
rid of all the people with traffic
tickets, you know, they have a large
force. They're not going to sit around.
As I said earlier, I I do believe in
enforcing the law, but the law has to be
fair. The law has to be reasonable. Um,
and and I'm compelled to say this, you
know, what happened under the Biden
administration.
>> I have a huge issue with where the the
doors were essentially opened and tens
of millions, you know, minimally 10
million illegals came, you know, to this
country. And now it has to be dealt
with. Now, I don't necessarily agree
with the in fact don't necessarily I
don't agree with these type of tactics
being used.
>> But even if he did, it wouldn't apply to
somebody like Vanessa who's been here.
Well,
>> I mean, for what it sounds like, she
came in under George W. Bush's term.
>> She did nothing. She did nothing wrong.
What What crime is a 2-year-old going to
commit? And what you're gonna have, I
think, long term is not only the trauma
that the girl and her family are going
to go through, but this whole idea now
of, well, who's next. And and that that,
as I said, that I don't think that
really speaks well to the state of human
freedom, nor to the issue of how laws
are enforced because, as you said, you
know, how laws are enforced are are
almost as important as the laws
themselves. I mean, there's this old
expression, the spirit of the law and
the letter of the law, right? A lot of
people jaywalk, but they're very rarely
cited. Um, when it comes to immigration,
you know, that premise has to be dealt
with at some point. You know, we have
had periods of in our history where
we've I mean, pretty much for most of
the country's history, at least for
Europeans, we had open borders until
1924. We've had periods of amnesty even
under presidents like Reagan. We've had
militarization of the border among both
Republicans and Democrats. But to your
point, we haven't really had anything
recently in in most people's lifetimes,
at least people that are under 40. And
the longer that that doesn't change and
it atrophes, I think you're going to see
the damage that inaction does, and I
think you saw it on the streets of the
Pinerest neighborhood several days ago.
>> There are four words that really scare
me. Show me your papers.
>> Yeah.
>> And I kind of feel may be there. And
Mike, I'm going to I'm going to be very
blunt to you and and the audience on
this because I think it's important. You
know, my wife came to this country as a
international student, claimed asylum uh
because of her religious background.
She's from a oppressed religious
minority in her country, was granted
asylum, went through the process over
many years, um got her green card,
eventually became a naturalized citizen
in 2013. And I'll tell you what, my wife
laughs off a lot of things and has a
very dark sense of humor because of just
her own experience. But we had a
conversation the other day about, you
know, for the first time, you know, she
feels compelled when she walks in the
neighborhood to carry around both her
her driver's license and her passport
out of fear that somebody could stop
her. And and I never thought I'd hear
those words out of her mouth. And I
think it speaks to the moment we're in.
And it shows us that what is happening
nationally also affects us locally. And
we got to talk about it regardless of
how we feel about the issue. We got to
keep talking about it because otherwise
nothing's going to change.
>> Yeah. I think we're just going to see
more of the same sadly because it's the
law. And I agree with you about the
border under Biden. You know, I've been
a registered Democrat my whole life, and
that was a shameful.
I know that the Democrats were writing
an autopsy that they've decided not to
publish. And I think that's probably
number one is what happened at the
border. I've spoken with immigrants
during that time who who were horrified
by that because they'd gone through the
proper channels and it makes them look
bad. You know, I don't think there's
anybody in the world that could defend
the border under the Biden regime.
On that note,
we appreciate your time and commentary
on it. Um, we'll be back with this issue
hopefully in the future to sort of give
some updates if if if we hear any. But
thank you for your your your your views
on it and your and your open dialogue.
Um, thank you again for joining us.
We'll be back next week with a new
episode of Open Agenda. Take care.
Here's our host. Who the hell is he?
