Watch highlights from the July 2026 Wicomico County Council work session as officials and the public address the stalled grants audit and debate government transparency.
S3 E40 Highlights of the Grant Audit Meeting July 2026
Show Transcript
Disclaimer: The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain spelling or contextual errors.
You're watching Open Agenda.
>> Good morning, Joe White, Parsonsburg,
Wakamaku County. Uh, I appreciate that
you had Lori Carter and Charles Smeckle
here today for the work session.
I do want to remind you that on April
21st at this very meeting, the agenda
stated that there would be a work
session with the county auditor, the
director of finance, the acting director
of public works, and the deputy director
of finance, who's also Charles Smeckle.
At that meeting, only the internal
auditor was present.
So that was four months ago. it was or
three months ago, my apologies. Um, so
we talk about time and uh, Vice
President Merritt, you stated on June
16th that you wanted to have this
wrapped up by November and I understand
your your calls for for wanting to have
a a deadline.
It was it was hard to watch that work
session, not because this is not whether
the executive is right or the council's
right or the auditor's right. That's not
that's not what this is about. This is
about the charter 50 or 305E and the
citizens of the county and the fiduciary
responsibility of the folks who are on
the council in the administration and in
the alter uh internal auditors
department.
Zero out of 52 is a failure of that
charter.
It just is.
I'm not here to assign the blame. That's
not my job. Charles Meckl said today and
I quote, "The executive has an
obligation to supply the internal
auditor with the materials they
requested." And I agree that's in the
charter. Zero out of 52.
My question is, where do we going to go
from here? Okay, again, I'm not here to
assign blame. What I want to see is a
body that can work together. And I don't
see that right now. Um, there's one
person in particular that I'd love to
hear from because I imagine his
frustration level has to be at a at a
very high, but I'd like to hear from him
and that's Mr. Ralph Capen who wrote the
letter and it was referenced at the
first July meeting. He's on the audit
review board. I think his voice is
probably the same voice that a lot of
folks in the county have. I want to know
that their money is being spent. We're a
conservative county. We want to make
sure our money is being spent and it's
accounted for. Plain and simple. So, we
either get results or we don't, but
that's where we're at. Thank you.
>> My name is Andre Chhatel, internal
auditor, and um uh this this is a
follow-up discussion on the reports of
grant audits.
>> All right, you could all just let us
know who you are, Lori.
>> Lori Carter, I'm the grant
administrator.
>> Charles
>> Charles Schmeichel, deputy finance
director. Mr. President, if I might ask
a direct question here. What are our
objectives for this discussion?
>> Well, I think we just wanted to review
uh the process between um the internal
auditor and Miss Carter. I know that Mr.
Carter really hasn't had an opportunity
to speak to anyone to really I think
openly discuss what the concerns were.
Uh the audit, the grant audit that uh
Missel Mutel put together, I think had
some very serious findings in there.
created a lot of concerns and the
reality of it is I think the executive
branch sort of I think interceded a
little bit which I could have possibly
prevented both uh Mrs. Carter and Mrs.
Chhatel from doing their job completely.
So we thought well let's let's have that
discussion uh in the open in public to
see exactly how we can move forward with
this.
>> Good morning everyone. I thank you for
this opportunity to be able to set
before you today. Um, as I stated over
about a year ago, um, I took on this
role in October of 2024.
Um, after being in the role, um, I was
tasked with having to set through a
monitoring through the Department of
Housing for about 3 months and I was
working with um, the planning. Um they
had uh that particular one that was
scheduled that had particular um I
believe the grants went back to 2015.
Um sometimes with the state that happens
um unfortunately but it does. And so
that's where I spent a considerable
amount of time making sure that was
good. One of the things I think when I
first had came on um I was given the
opportunity to set in one of the first
meetings which was with the department
of emergency services. Um at that
particular meeting um it was my
understanding that that particular
department was supposed to be reviewed.
Um and as time went on um that had
changed and that particular scope had
pretty much expanded um due to the fact
that
again this is a new position. I'm still
learning all of the departments what it
is that they do. Um it has required,
believe it or not, and I'm myself I have
to admit I thought this was going to be
pretty much an easy dunk. It is not. Um
um it has taken me a year and I guess
short of seven months to really get a
good feel of where we are. It was never
the intent to make anyone's life or work
difficult. It's just being able to pull
these things together appropriately.
>> Um so that's where we are at the moment.
Since then I have met with the
departments on a regular basis. I have
had meetings here with each and every
one of them. We had a meeting with all
of them whereas we flushed out the
department's requirements as it relates
to the grants management. We now have a
manual that is more of um a step by step
showing them what they need to do. That
is not only for existing, but because we
do have staff that are new that may not
have that particular um
the actual um experience at least they
will have a road map that will help them
to be able to work along with the
internal auditor as well. But that's in
a nutshell. I don't want to belabor it,
but I just want to say I think there is
a a communication
um situation that needs to be worked
out. I think we've had certain types of
talks since then. I think that the
administration has worked hard in
regards to trying to have at least a
point person who can help us through
that particular process who happens to
be Mr. Smeckle. Um so moving forward I
think if we were to able to develop the
stepbystep
process that would help and her to know
that first of all I am not the actual
beholder of all of this. This is at each
of the local
departments helping them because we do
get a copy of the grant agreement. So
wanting to make sure that everything is
being followed even though they do have
that expertise but if there's a problem
if you don't understand that the first
thing someone would say Lori should have
known that or Lori should have done
that. So again, there's so many there is
so much to the life cycle of a grant
that kind of would blow your mind
somewhat if I could say, but the but you
know, once you have and we do we have an
excellent team of persons that know what
they're doing. It's just again trying to
be able to make sure that we are going
after the best of the best and as it
relates to the grants and that we are
staying actually compliant.
>> Okay, Josh,
>> I got three um three [clears throat]
questions. Um well, first of all, I say
there's about uh 33,000 governments
inside the United States. Uh which often
kind of um makes people pause. There's
different types of governments, right?
Um, uh, a lot of legislative branches
certainly have an inherent investigatory
component to it. We're not Congress.
We're not subpoenaing anything. Uh, but
the ability for the legislative branch
to understand, you know, what's
happening and or, you know, especially
because we hold the purse, right? So, I
guess, uh, three questions I have.
Number one, are there uh grant types
or or are there are there grants or
types of grants in which the county does
not submit a grant report? Do we know if
there's
>> there is as far as I know and since I've
been doing this for a while, if you
receive a grant from any agency, you are
required to do a report. um there's not
many agencies that do not come out and
actually monitor. So that's going to be
an oversight that happens first with
that particular agency. So I don't know
of any that just will pretty much say
here's a check and bye-bye. I guess that
brings me to the second question is is
it you know I'd ask the county executive
or the um or the administration but is
it the administration's view that
council's role is to has the authority
to review grant
um reports. I don't even want to say
grant agreements because that's on the
executive side of things. But after it's
all done, tied up and we say, "Hey, we
spent, you know, we bought 47,000 nails
for this particular project, you know,
whatever it is, the grant agreement is
tied up in a bow and it's done and sent
off." Does is it the administration's
view that the legislative branch has the
authority to review those, I guess, is
the question that I'm pondering.
>> My view is absolutely.
>> Most definitely. I didn't want to speak
first. I wanted him to speak first, but
I I would definitely
>> Okay. Yeah. So then I guess then come
that comes down then the third obvious
part is then okay then I think with what
you all are getting at and especially um
you know as it's been mentioned the the
it's never going to be fully centralized
role it's always going to be a slightly
bit decentralized
uh but having someone that can help
organize this uh I think is helpful but
I guess what is the process um
uh for then I guess going forward for
the legislative branch to be able to
request and review any of those grant
reports. And I'm not saying to be clear,
I'm not saying to to jump in and get
involved with the writing of a grant or
the how it was executed, but once it's
done and submitted, what is then the
process for us to easily or or in this
case I say the legislative branch and I
include within that mhatel and that that
role. Uh but ultimately as a check on
those who hold the purse, how do we have
a process internally or what do we need
to do to set up a process internally to
make sure that that we could then
theoretically review those grant reports
to know that the money was spent the way
that it's supposed to be sent or to then
just quickly look and say, "Hey, clearly
this, you know, the amount that was
given doesn't match up here. What
happened?" And I think that's really
where the core of what we want to make
sure going forward that there's no that
we have the ability and especially um in
the internal auditor has the ability to
then review and understand what happens
within monies that was given to the
county and how it was allocated and
spent after.
>> Right. But I I [clears throat] think
without question we cannot blur the
lines the executive branch the
administration does not have any role
whatsoever
in oversight with the internal auditor.
If the executive chooses or I see
something that's uh you know
dissatisfactory so to say
>> so to speak that would be something that
would be directed to the department head
which would be you
>> however you may choose to
>> I'm a department head
>> excuse me
>> I'm not a department head
>> I was a grand administrator
>> thank you [laughter] thank you
>> but you know I think that's that role
under no circumstances whatsoever is the
administration supposed to have any
oversight on the internal auditor that's
very very clear there's standards of
objectivity that specific specifically
state that you do not she that the
internal order does not subordinate her
authority or her judgment to
[clears throat] any other outside
source. And that's very important and I
think that's what I'm I'm a little I'm a
little concerned with a couple of emails
that we've had here recently in
reference to this whole issue. Uh
there's an email from the executive
stating on April 15th
that uh that Bunky will no Bonnie
Luffman would no longer serve as the
executive's representative for matters
involving the internal auditor found
that to be very very odd and stated that
Mr. Charles Schmeckle direct deputy
director of finance will assume this
role. That's not relevant to the county
council nor is it relevant to the
internal auditor. The internal auditor
will continue to send the her reports to
the administration, not to department
heads, not to deputy directors, not at
all. Her role is to send it either, in
my opinion, to whomever it might be
that's being audited and sending it to
the executive branch. Period. Now, if
the executive branch chooses to get the
assistance from the finance department,
that would be fine. We don't we have no
object objection objection at all to how
it may be handled behind the scenes. But
to then assume that that that uh we're
going to be directing this to um someone
who is not associated with the executive
branch specifically is not going to
happen. Mr. Schmeckle, you also sent an
email on April 14 15th saying that um as
[clears throat] the official point of
contact, this arrangement is not to
supplant the executive or the director
administration as the official point of
contact, but to supplement executive
branch efforts to fulfill our internal
audit obligations.
The executive branch has no obligation
whatsoever to fulfill with the internal
auditor. The intern let me finish. The
internal auditor is independent. Period.
>> Go ahead,
>> Mr. President. I absolutely agree with
that. However, the executive branch has
an obligation to provide the internal
auditor the information that she
requests.
>> Right. And so I view as well as the
executive as my role is to ensure that
we are meeting that obligation. We need
to make sure that our controls are as
tight as possible. The internal auditor
is an important component of that and
having been an internal auditor. The
executive asked me to take this role
because I have a better understanding
than others in the executive branch to
do so. What I don't want to do though is
I want to make sure that we're not we're
not blurring those lines and and it's
just it's not me it's not my personal
opinion. I mean as you stated the
committee was very upset with how this
this grants audit was was done. Uh no
different than if PKS as as an external
audit does something. You don't send 16
emails back and forth critiquing uh PKS.
You simply respond to to what was noted
and you give your management report and
that's how this breaks down. I think
that that's some [clears throat] type of
sensibility we were trying to get back
to in in the county in reference to the
internal order. Dave, you had a
question?
>> Yeah. Well, it's actually several and
and and maybe getting into the weeds a
little bit. Okay. So, we're hearing that
there were 52 items that were never
provided. I think uh data points or
whatever the case may be. So, that's you
know, overall that's kind of like our
starting point. That's a feedback that
says, okay, there's there's an issue.
That's why we're sitting at the table
today. But looking at the process, uh
the most important step it seems like to
me is the entry meeting when you
establish all the ground rules and you
say this is this is the process. Uh this
is the data we're going to need. This is
who's going to supply it and from there
it should it should move rather smoothly
smoothly if everybody has agreed to
those parameters. Uh and that would be
then uh getting specific it would be in
this case uh I would say the point
person portion would obviously be Miss
Carter and then she would then determine
who who is the u keeper of the
information and that would be the flow
process. It sounds that in in my uh
simple mind that's how that would be
arranged and it would be direct. So then
I I read that there was an entry meeting
on January 29th. I'm just kind of
wondering if there were no objections
and maybe there were, how did it get off
so far off track and there that big gap
of time that we were waiting for
responses? Um, my recollection of the
answer to that was the answer to when
the question was asked who provides the
information was you would have to
approach each individual department to
get their grant documentation.
Miss Carter could assist,
you know, please copy her on that. But
to those of us, at least on our side of
the table, we thought we had the
understanding that you had to go to each
individual department. If you look at
the prior grants audit by a prior
internal auditor, it will say that
things were decentralized. And that's
generally what it meant. He went to each
individual department. So if I read and
correct me if I'm wrong and I may be I
thought I read that during the entry
meeting it was determined that Miss
Carter would be the point person and
then maybe it wasn't that way and then
then she would have the task which might
be arduous to go to each department head
and retrieve it and bring it back to M
Chhatel.
>> I think you've identified the key point
of miscommunication on this particular
audit. I think that
Mattel heard one thing while the rest of
us intended something else in our mind.
>> Okay. So, just to be clear, what she she
intended it to be the way I said it and
but you but your understanding was that
it was to go direct to the department
heads or do I have it reversed?
>> Looking looking back at it because you
know I had to go through and figure out
what happened on this audit. You know,
we do take this seriously that we went
back. It appeared Mishel thought she
just had to direct the request to Lori.
While our intention was if you need to
look at each
if you need to look at grant
documentation, you'd have to go to each
individual department.
Miss Carter could assist with some of
that and to keep her apprised of that
information,
but you'd still have to go to the
separate departments.
>> And can I Mr. Yeah, just for the point
of comm miscommunication perhaps, then
uh the grant administrator sent an email
on June 9th uh in response to my request
said, "I will review the list of grants
you would like to evaluate for testing
and will provide an update after I have
completed my review and spoken with the
staff." That indicated to me that Lori
was going to be as as you said, council
member Andis. Yeah, and that's actually
correct from the stand again walking in
my very first meeting. This was the very
first meeting. I have been through an
audit as a department head but never in
this particular role. So I was basically
trying to assist. This is a brand new
role. Okay, I'm going to respond not
knowing I should have and I can accept,
you know, that I should have said, um,
okay, let me make sure that you get to
the departments and not for me to take
on that.
>> It really seems to be a nuance if if you
will and that it wouldn't care, well,
for my part, I wouldn't care whether it
was Li saying here's who you go to and
just go at it or she's actually the
gatekeeper and bringing the information
in. I mean, you know, I don't think any
any of us here care which what direction
that goes, but I guess that one thing
perhaps caused for there to be
>> I learned this
other way. Yeah. So,
>> and then I was never informed that it
should be the other way.
>> Okay.
>> I or I feel like I've never I was not
informed of the change.
So, just to be clear, going forward, if
Analie needs to audit anything, she is
to tell the two of you what's going on
first with Lori, then Mr. Schmeckle.
>> No.
>> Okay. I'm just trying to get the process
right.
>> Sure.
>> So, how is the process going to work
then? If
>> I may I'm sorry.
>> I'm just trying to figure out this
process.
>> What How is this process supposed to
work? Is it Is it supposed to go to Lori
first? So when there's a question
inquiry, it goes to Mr.
>> Mr. Okay. What question inquiry goes to
Mr.
>> In regards to the audit? Anything
related to the audit?
>> It goes to the administration.
>> Excuse me.
>> It goes to the administration. It goes
to the executive branch.
>> Okay. Sure. Okay. They can disseminate
that. They can disseminate that
information however they choose. It's
just a process, Mr. Okay. You
understand?
>> Because there cannot be you understand
everything about internal auditor's
perception.
>> Right. Mr. president. Um,
>> the way that I perceive it from my
viewpoint, if she's auditing a
department, all I'm asking is to just be
CCD.
>> You know, I went away on two weeks
vacation. I came back. There was 497
emails in my email box. There were 150
of those were from the internal auditor.
Now, only three of them required my
direct
input, but the other 147 I'm just simply
trying to keep track of who she's asked
requests of and whether have they
provided the information that she's
asked for. So, I just see myself as a CC
for [clears throat] the most part. If
there's a problem, I've asked Miss
Chhatel, please let me know if you're
not getting any response so that I can
start to lay pressure upon those
departments.
And that's that's how I view my role.
I'm not trying to intervene on her
audits. I'm not trying to interfere. I'm
just trying to make sure that all right,
are we getting the information provided
in a timely fashion?
>> At the entry meeting, it sounds like you
know that you would always be party to
that as well as Mr. obviously and then
whichever department head is going to be
involved and from the onset you would
know the management would know you know
uh and more or less directed to a
department head this is what you're
supposed to do then it's hands off and
you get out of the the uh you know the
influenced issue but that sounds but but
every every audit situation is probably
going to be a little bit different and
you go into that entry meeting and you
set the ground rules then and they may
be a little bit different here and there
but you would obviously be in the point
person be the main person to be involved
from the onset.
>> Yes. I feel like he's not the point
person. And so, and that goes to
President Canon's concern like that the
executive maybe would be the point
person when there's a major issue, but
he is a CC person. And when there are
concerns [laughter]
about independence um in in in our
communication sometimes um uh I have
asked him if I could forward it to the
audit committee and he said yes. And so
the audit committee has
>> Why would you ask that?
um because it as his email, he's the
official record holder due to um uh like
he he because he sent it to me. So his
it's his email.
>> We're just asking for information.
That's all. If people have problem
giving up information, that creates
mistrust. It indicates he might have
something to hide and that goes down a
road we don't want to go down. Um this
audit began in FY25. We are now one
month into FY27.
Can this audit be done by the time we
leave office?
>> No. And and it's not if if I I have to
create an audit plan now because that
that report's been finalized. So that
audit's done. I have to create the audit
plan for the next fiscal year. Um and I
have a lot of documents in my office
right now to go through for other
audits. I could put other audits on hold
and you know get this audit plan you
know ready give it to you guys next week
stop everything else and do this one
potentially but then that does a
disservice to all the other audits going
on
>> keep in mind too that that it is part of
the charter we get quoted the charter a
lot about what we're not allowed to get
engaged in Charles okay you're not the
only one okay so keep in mind though
that the internal auditor any and all
records that the internal auditor
requests she is obligated to receive
period
There can't be the perception of her
sticking her nose into something she's
not supposed to. That is the charter of
this county that says anything she
requests she may she may receive. And I
believe there was a lot of stonewalling
going on which never should ever ever
ever happen.
>> John, you you bring that up and I guess
that's in section 305 of the charter.
If that's correct, and I'm sure most
employees of this county read the
charter, how come when she asked for the
information, it wasn't given to her?
>> In this case, it was a simple
miscommunication.
There were
>> I can't Charl interrupt you. I can't I
can't hardly believe that as many emails
that went back and forth trying to get
information that there was
miscommunication.
of all the communication that went back
and forth, how was there
miscommunications? I'm sorry.
>> I think if you go back and read the
management response to this particular
audit, we're went back, we found that
the scope had consistently changed that
created a great deal of confusion. And
then when the requests were kind of
finalized,
there were key people that were dropped
from that communication.
I think that's what led to people who
would be able to say, um, we need to
direct that request to the department
heads.
>> You asked for 51.
>> 52.
>> 52.
>> Yeah.
>> But you got none.
>> Correct.
>> Okay. Out of that 52 she asked for,
wasn't there one or two or three or five
that you could have sent her that she
could have worked on?
>> You said there was a miscommunication.
I believe it. I understand this is
frustrating from all points of view here
and I appreciate what you're getting at,
but I mean
we've learned a lot from this process.
We're still trying to figure out how can
we resolve this issue so that we can
move on and make sure that everybody's
getting set up. We're getting the
information that the internal auditor
needs. We're getting the information
that the council needs. We're getting
the information that the director of
finance and I need in order to make sure
that we're providing proper stewardship.
>> It's just a matter of shifting
information if somebody asks for
information to shifting it to this one
person
in an email. I I I don't understand why
it can't go. I I'm not getting it why
why that information can't go.
>> That answered your question, Councilman.
Yeah,
>> if I could piggy back on what Joe's
saying, you know, the miscommunication
that I heard was simply as to whether
the request went to Li, the grants
administrator andor the dire uh
department heads direct. And that seems
a fairly in my way of thinking small
miscommunication to have avoided getting
the bottom line 52 items. I mean, I'm,
you know, I mean, the reason you were
given, Joe, was that there was a
miscommunication, but that seems pretty
insignificant. In other words, it should
have been able to have been worked out
fairly easily. I think, you know, it's
this person instead of that person that
it's not it's not rocket science, but,
you know, I I agree with you. I I think
that, you know, I I an explanation as to
why we couldn't get those 52 is is still
lingering out there. So I think again
when we say there was a mis spell or a
misra communication it to a degree it's
on everyone's side. We need to set up
some sort of mechanism. Now I had
previously reached out to members of
this council and I appreciate the two
members that took the time to speak with
me as I do have some concerns over the
internal audit program and how it's
being carried out.
I think it would be helpful and I've
attempted to reach out as far as getting
at least one or two members of the audit
committee to where we can sit down for a
quarterly meeting.
I think that that would be a good way
for them to filter that out. Now, we
still need to work on how we want to
accomplish that.
I've attempted to reach out as far as
trying to do a monthly status meeting.
There's concerns over independence. So,
I've kind of I got to respect that. I
understand your point of view and
absolutely we do want to make sure that
I'm not unduly influencing the internal
auditor but on the other side I want to
make sure that she can go through the
audits and that we can confer on the
status of
hey Charles this audit I'm just not
receiving anything is there anything you
can do to
